Rules Update, Demorules changed

By faker mapper·
Dear users,

once again the rules have been changed to make them easier to read and understand for everyone out there. This times the demo rules got a brand new structure and some additions which were needed for a long time. Don't forget... we admins are humans just like you and we know that it can be boring and fustrating to read long rules and remember all of then ;)

Here is a complete overview on what was changed:

First of all the demo rules were splitted into several parts to improve the structure of the rules: General rules, NON-Steam rules, Settings, Gamespecific rules, Timer rules, Rules about cheating.

Other than that, there are some pretty important changes:

  • NON-Steam demos are not allowed.
    ->Get a legal copy of Counter-Strike if you want to submit record demos on this site.

  • You are not allowed to use one of the old protocols (eg. protocol 47).
    -> Changes in the protocol might affect the game's physics which could cause slight advantages or disadvantages compared to the latest version.

This rule was introduced because we kept receiving a lot of new records which were recorded on the old protocol - and a lot of complaints about it. Hence: After the next demo release records recorded with a NON-Steam version or the old protocol won't be accepted! So if you still got some records which have been recorded with the old protocol or with a NON-steam version, this is your last chance to submit them.

  • Hook/teleporters: You are allowed to use AMX features like teleporters or hook to get up to places you could climb up as well, means you are allowed to use them as a 'support tool' to save "sensless" climbtime before you start the actual run (because theoretically the same record would be possible without teleport/hook - it would only take much more time to get up there every time before you start a run).

  • BUT: It's not allowed to use teleporters or hook to get an unfair advantage, means gaining more speed or reaching an unreachable spot (to start the run from).
    -> Setting a teleporter or hooking to a precise location and taking your speed and direction with you into that teleporter can be an unfair advantage, because this might give you an additional speedboost (and therefore more speed than you could gain without these AMX features).


There was still a lot of confusion about the new style of startbutton-shortcuts, therfore we felt like a rule (more a clearification) for this situation was needed... Also a lot of people were - and still are - confused about the AXN records which seem to contain a few unreal and unfair ways of getting more speed. The new rule might affect some of these AXN demos, but this will be investigated within the next days (all the AXN demos will be reviewed).

  • Demos with a timerbug (FAQ: What is a timerbug?) will be accepted under special obligations:
    They have to be faster than the current record.
    -> Example #1: Your demo is 12:21 (ingame time) and 12:23 (record time), and the current WR is 12:24 (ingame time) and 12:24 (record time). Your demo is 2 seconds timerbugged, but its still 1 sec faster than the old record, so your demo will be accepted.
    -> Example #2: Your demo is 01:59 (ingame) and 02:01:8 (record time), but the current WR is 02:00 (ingame) and 02:01:4 (record time) � then your demo will not replace the current WR � because it�s slower.

  • Synchronized demos (same ingame & record time) will replace timerbugged demos.
    -> Example: Current WR is 00:36 (ingame) and 00:37.3280 (record time) � then you can beat it by doing 00:36 (ingame) and 00:36:xxx (record time). If you make 00:36 (ingame) and 00:37:1xx (record time) your demo will not replace the old demo since we don�t replace a timerbugged demo with another timerbugged demo.

  • You cannot beat a demo by 0.x or less, unless it falls under the category of the rule above.
    -> Example: clintmo_longjumper[x]_Hanniball_0005.dem has an ingame time of 00:05 and a record time of 00:05:9. This means his demo is synchronized (not timerbugged) and you must make 00:04 ingame and 00:04:x (record time) to beat his demo.

  • On some bugged maps the kz timer isn`t showing any numbers or is bugged about some of them. In cases like that we will determine your time using Fps death according to circumstances.
    -> This is a map related timer bug, therefore this only applies for bugged maps.


One of the major changes in the demo rules since the beginning of KZ, which hasn't been added to the rules until now. Hopefully this will help to explain the changes made after the latest poll, to improve/solve the huge problem with the incorrect timers and the famous timerbug.

Comments

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22/03/2009 03:31:00

cool

22/03/2009 03:33:00

Nice release with nice logical rules. Thanks to admin :)

22/03/2009 03:34:00

gj

22/03/2009 03:36:00

gj, good changes :)

22/03/2009 03:45:00

nice job! iin will cant slowmo now

22/03/2009 03:46:00

mmm... gj...

22/03/2009 03:50:00

if wr 13:37 ( 13:39.xxxx) can 13:38 (13:38.xxxx) ?

22/03/2009 03:52:00

Excuse me, but this is a huge mistake... Wouldn't it make sense to [b]remove[/b] demos that are breaking these new rules? For example, kz_42_amazon will never be beaten now, cause nobody can use the shortcut cause of the new rules, and when newcomers are watching this WR they think it is legal, but it's actually not (anymore). I'm really sorry for the people who has NON-Steam demos here on the site (I know there's a lot), but it makes perfect sense to me to deny demos recorded with an illegal version of CS, and I wonder why this rule wasn't applied earlier. [i]"This particular content is NOT tolerated: Massive advertisement, multiplayer cheats or scripts (aimbots, wallhacks, bhopscripts etc), Warez (Mp3, NON-Steam, Porn) and other material that can be found offensive."[/i] ...but you accept NON-Steam demos?!

22/03/2009 03:53:00

Okay I'm sorry for not being supportive at all, but these rules don't fix anything. First of all, if you want to make all of these changes with the protocol and starting the timer from high up, you can't just do it now and leave all the old records there. It means that every map in which the jumper hooked up and got a speedboost is now virtually unbeatable, and the old protocol demos still gave the jumper advantages. About the timer, honestly, I just think it's retarded what's going on here. How many times do you want people to explain why this is wrong? I'm fucking tired of having to write down an opinion about something that has to be so clear cut every time this issue comes up. It's nothing but tiresome, and it just makes me not care anymore about anything that happens around here. Me, and several other people (specifically cheche), have explained over and over and over and over and over again why the old method doesn't make sense, and why this one doesn't make sense. I would type it out again, but I'm not even going to bother. Is anyone going to read it? Maybe a few people. Is anyone going to do anything about it? No. Really, you want people to be more active, but all you're doing by ignoring people who make logical arguments is just discourage them from ever taking part and trying to help you find the best way to solve a problem.

22/03/2009 04:01:00

[b]WHAT THE [color=#0099ff]F[/color]![/b]

22/03/2009 04:10:00

What is timerbug? The FAQ links to nothing. For example, heL's 1:59 on kzno_xtremeblock is timerbuged, because the record time is more than 2 seconds slower. What I have seen is only that reason.

22/03/2009 04:19:00

PuppetZ: I was just posting the updated rules after we had a braindstorming together this day. Since I'm no demo admin anymore I can't say anything about the demos, but if there are still demos that violate against the new rules, they will be removed of course (in the next demo release). It's inside the news, too, isn't it? So don't worry... I'm sure thopa will check out kz_42_amazon etc. - s1gh: Are you sure that you did understand what the rule is really talking about? The rule clarifies that every shortcut or glitch, which is made possible by the cs engine or a mappers' mistake, is and will stay ´allowed. Examples for that: kzno_xtremeblock, stoneblock_ez etc... The same runs could be done without AMX/teleporter as well, so it's just another technique/way to do the maps faster. And remember: It's one of XJ's basic principles to do NOT restrict any way of techniques or shortcuts. Everybody can beat the maps as fast as possible - as long as he doesn't cheat or abuse non-cs related tools. The only thing that is not allowed is to abuse AMX to make impossible things possible... example would be to fly through the wall at kzru_spacebhop and make the 10 seonds run on the rock... And maybe the kz_42_amazon record (didn't check that one yet so I can't be sure about that one... but I think it has a issue because puppetz talked about it). So make sure you understand the text before you complain about how lame the rules are... they were made because all the stuff is pretty confusing and controversial. This is the proof I guess :)

22/03/2009 04:42:00

Okay. WHAT? Are you serious? Really? BUT: It's not allowed to use teleporters or hook to get an unfair advantage, means gaining more speed or reaching an unreachable spot (to start the run from). So you're saying that i can't use noclip in the middle of my run, but everything else is nice and jolly? Well jeez, thanks for "clearing up" something no one even questioned. By the way, way to prove my point by ignoring the entire timer issue. "Really, you want people to be more active, but all you're doing by ignoring people who make logical arguments is just discourage them from ever taking part and trying to help you find the best way to solve a problem." It's okay, I won't be surprised if you ignore this post too.

22/03/2009 05:31:00

it is bad :(

22/03/2009 05:33:00

Dude, whats your problem? You really want me to go through your sensless posts step by step, just to make you understand how pointless your post really is? Ok.... here we go. First post: [quote=s1gh]First of all, if you want to make all of these changes with the protocol and starting the timer from high up, you can't just do it now and leave all the old records there.[/quote] Yes, we can. CS was updated a while ago, that doesn't mean that all demos have to be removed, does it? Regarding the gameplay there are no real differences at all, so this is mostly a cosmetic thing. Anyway, the protocol has been updated, that means that ppl shouldn't be using it anymore. With steam it's not even possible to use it anymore, so what's the point? Only way to submit old protocol demos is using NON-Steam... Don't need to explain why NON-Steam isn't supported on this site, do I? [quote=s1gh]It means that every map in which the jumper hooked up and got a speedboost is now virtually unbeatable[/quote] What are you talking about? Stuff like that was never allowed, it just wasn't clarified in the rules so far. Now it is inside the rules so that there is no more confusion about it.... What I just said is even written down in the newspost: [i]The new rule might affect some of these AXN demos, but this will be investigated within the next days (all the AXN demos will be reviewed).[/i] Reviewed means "checked if legit, if not -> removed" btw.... [quote=s1gh]and the old protocol demos still gave the jumper advantages[/quote] What? There is no real difference between the thw protocols. In the future there might be updates with real changes in the engine (if valve brings new updates that change the movement), then we might have to think about removing the old records. But we (and probably everyone of the record holders as well) hope that this will never happen. [quote=s1gh]About the timer, honestly, I just think it's retarded what's going on here. How many times do you want people to explain why this is wrong? I'm fucking tired of having to write down an opinion about something that has to be so clear cut every time this issue comes up. It's nothing but tiresome, and it just makes me not care anymore about anything that happens around here. Me, and several other people (specifically cheche), have explained over and over and over and over and over again why the old method doesn't make sense, and why this one doesn't make sense. I would type it out again, but I'm not even going to bother. Is anyone going to read it? Maybe a few people. Is anyone going to do anything about it? No. Really, you want people to be more active, but all you're doing by ignoring people who make logical arguments is just discourage them from ever taking part and trying to help you find the best way to solve a problem[/quote] Well, about the timer... I don't like the new system as well (just check my comments back at the poll), but the majority thinks it's the better system and an improvement compared to the old one ... Remember the big poll we had about it? This discussion is one of the questions where ppl just do NOT agree and you (we) have to let the majority decide about what is "right". That's exactly what we did. So why do you accuse us that we wouldn't care about what people think? You are just in the minority on this one and have to accept it (just like I did), no matter how logical you think you arguments might sound... And yeah, I know that you can argument that it's unfair like hell that you can beat a "25" demo which is 26.01 in real time with a "25" demo @ "25,99" realtim (and the other guy needs to improve up to 24,99 to beat it... But it's have been always like that (even more unfair if a 25 second demo was in fact a 26,9 which was on the limit to be a "timerbug demo") and the new system is just a compromise between having the old system (demo beatable by 1 second only, not 0,000x seconds) and eleminating the timerbugs and having "real" times (replacing the timeshift ones).... - Ok, your second post.... Don't think I have to answer that "funny" sarcasm... Wouldn't lead to anything. So my suggestion for you: Start to think before you complain.

22/03/2009 06:03:00

s1gh want f*ck off kunqui demos cuz he hates kunqui (donno why) sorry for the bad english

22/03/2009 06:06:00

PQST;]#cxgteams: u said iin use slowmo so prove it or please shut ur fuck up

22/03/2009 06:07:00

Another thing about NON-Steam and record holders: If you are one of the current record holders and can't buy Counter-Strike at steam, please contact me (IRC/PM) and we'll help you to get a CS 1.6 Steamaccount. :)

22/03/2009 06:08:00

oh PQST,did iin ever fuck your mother?why you guys always accuse falsely him? sorry my english bad

22/03/2009 06:09:00

Faker, you need to fucking think about what you write before you do. I am serious right now, I've always been respectful to you even though sometimes you post ridiculous things. Just read what you write. You wrote in the news: "-> Changes in the protocol might affect the game's physics which could cause slight advantages or disadvantages compared to the latest version." And then you tell me: "Regarding the gameplay there are no real differences at all, so this is mostly a cosmetic thing." Regarding starting the map from up high with a hook. In the news: "It's not allowed to use teleporters or hook to get an unfair advantage, means gaining more speed or reaching an unreachable spot (to start the run from)." How does that not refer to maps like xtremeblock? IS that not gaining an unfair advantage? That is EXACTLY what the controversy is about, and all this news did was make it even more vague. Once again, about the timer, you prove my point about you being an asshole by making a poll and ignoring the posts made in it. If you read ANY of my posts on the poll, you would know that I think that the method that's currently in use sucks, but that I voted yes nonetheless. You would also know why I did that, but obviously you don't think that's important. You're just being hypocritical. Also, "senseless" still isn't a word.

22/03/2009 06:59:00

One question to the admins let's say the current WR is 00:44,(44.5555 real time). So I can beat it with 00:43,(43.8888). But, can I beat it with 00:43,(44.1111) ?

22/03/2009 07:00:00

Gay rule for sure.. i won't go and buy steam just for one community + cs will die in 2 or 3 months -.-

22/03/2009 07:01:00

[quote=s1gh]Faker, you need to fucking think about what you write before you do. I am serious right now, I've always been respectful to you even though sometimes you post ridiculous things.[/quote] How can you say that after I disproved nearly all of your arguments? [quote=s1gh]You wrote in the news: "-> Changes in the protocol might affect the game's physics which could cause slight advantages or disadvantages compared to the latest version." And then you tell me: "Regarding the gameplay there are no real differences at all, so this is mostly a cosmetic thing."[/quote] 1. I am not "telling" you antything, I just explain the meaning of the rules to you, because obviously you don't get it on your own (what is pretty ridiculous tbh)... 2. You still don't get the real meaning, do you? The last engine update is just the reason that created this new rule, but the rule hast to be written in a way that it can cover future (and other) engine/protocol updates as well. Therefore we added "cause slight advantages or disadvantages", to cover different possibilities. But what the heck are we even arguing about? The old engine got outdated and shouldn't be used anymore. We don't need to put explantions or reasons in the news for this, this is a thing that should be self-evident. [quote=s1gh]Regarding starting the map from up high with a hook. In the news: "It's not allowed to use teleporters or hook to get an unfair advantage, means gaining more speed or reaching an unreachable spot (to start the run from)."[/quote] How can starting the map from a higher point be an advantage? That's so odd, I didn't even think about it. It's a thing that could be easily done without AMX as well (climbing up before they start the record demo), it would just increase the time the people need to make that world record. Our goal was to prevent REAL abuse of AMX, like setting a teleporter to places you can't reach with climbing.... [and I'm sure 80-90% of the community agrees on this one, at least all of the admins I talked to did.] [quote=s1gh]Once again, about the timer, you prove my point about you being an asshole by making a poll and ignoring the posts made in it. If you read ANY of my posts on the poll, you would know that I think that the method that's currently in use sucks, but that I voted yes nonetheless. You would also know why I did that, but obviously you don't think that's important.[/quote] About the timer thing... I want you to consider that I didn't introduce that rule, neither did I write the text. I just helped thopa and eddy to udpate the rules and formulate things that were a problem in recent issues... I just felt like all the other users out there, who have been confronted with the new situation, therfore I did put up that poll to see if the majority agreed or not. I did read your posts in the comments and I really thought and still think you that you got some good points, but the solutions you have suggest are just way too complex and won't happen (in the near future). Who knows what the future is going to bring, but they would need major changes in the demo script, a plugin with an exact timer, means things that are not really realistic atm... Could have posted that in the poll's comments, but I felt more like a normal user there since my opinion was "against the mainstream".

22/03/2009 07:36:00

Yes, you've disproved all my arguments, haha... I can see your point on the protocol thing, but honestly, it sounds like you just thought of the whole "future updates" crap for argument's sake. But okay, I'll give you the benefit of doubt on that. Just a little suggestion: next time you try writing a rule that's supposed to make things clearer, actually make it clearer instead of vague. "How can starting the map from a higher point be an advantage? That's so odd, I didn't even think about it." ... Are you sure you know what's going on in this "community"? How the hell is cutting the time that should be spent climbing up the the "drop-down" sc with hook NOT abuse of amx? This has been, like the timer, argued over and over again. Try reading some of puppetz's, cheche's, and my posts on this thread: http://xtreme-jumps.eu/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?121323 And, for a record-breaking third time, you've proven my point. You DIDN'T read my posts, don't even claim you did. How the hell can you say that my solution is too complex? Your little method includes a complicated, unfair process of which demos are accepted and which aren't. My solution is far simpler, just go by FPS death time only. If you actually needed a demo script, a plugin with an exact timer, and every other bullshit excuse you talked about, you wouldn't be able to enforce your method either. All you need is FPS-death.

22/03/2009 08:06:00

gay change, sorry. About AMX stuff, you actually can't make any clear rule about it. In rules, there's: [i]..you have to start the demo before pressing the startbutton..[/i], so, you climb to the top, start recording and voila, nothing more, noone can prove that you used hook, noclip, checkpoints or whatever to get there. Also, sv_gravity change isn't AMX, so you can use it to get to the top. About non-steam rule, is semisteam allowed? That still runs on 48. protocol, so should be (no matter that you don't have to pay for it and it's actually illegal). About timerbugs.. i don't want to comment them, i'm tired of that shit, timerbugs was, they are and they will be, fighting against them is sensless since you still accept timerbugged demos.

22/03/2009 08:15:00

sry for doublepost, but "PQST;]#cxgteams", prove it or leave it.

22/03/2009 08:17:00

I still think we should use the decimal system so that all records can be beaten by 0.01 seconds regardless of timer bugs. If somebody beats a map 0.01 seconds faster than the world record, then the fact of the matter is, they have beaten the world record. There's simply no logical reason to deny that. I'm aware that most of the kids on XJ don't like the idea of having records being beaten by 0.01 seconds, but the only arguments they give are: [list]It's lame *It would be boring to watch a demo that's 0.01 seconds faster[/list] As you can see, these are pretty weak arguments, since beating a world record is never "lame," nor are they under any obligation of watching the demos. So instead of trying to satisfy the majority, why don't you listen to people who are actually willing to make logical arguments, and take action accordingly? I find it amusing how XJ admins give the illusion that they're running a democracy, when in reality, there are several nazis amongst them who will unjustly ban kids that they don't like (poor Mehz.) Now is the time to take a stand and do what's best for the community!

22/03/2009 08:17:00

lol, why nonsteam demos wont be accepted? nonsteam is NOT illegal. You just cant play on steamed servers. and thats all.

22/03/2009 08:20:00

in kz_42_amazon u can reach that place on foot !

22/03/2009 08:53:00

WOAHAHAHAHA :D

22/03/2009 08:58:00

no steam stupid rule...

22/03/2009 09:14:00

how does a steam work whithout internet?

22/03/2009 09:31:00

+1 Gamster...

22/03/2009 09:35:00

faker clears up all (: gj for update [b]lohic[/b] rulezz

22/03/2009 10:22:00

* NON-Steam demos are not allowed. ->Get a legal copy of Counter-Strike if you want to submit record demos on this site. * You are not allowed to use one of the old protocols (eg. protocol 47). -> Changes in the protocol might affect the game's physics which could cause slight advantages or disadvantages compared to the latest version. [b][u]EPIC WIN[/b][/u] but what about people using a demo converter for converting from protocol 47 to 48? Can you check this as well?

22/03/2009 10:24:00

cidisk: it works just fine.

22/03/2009 10:33:00

gj xj staff ... good rules

22/03/2009 10:36:00

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

22/03/2009 10:36:00

i don't understand why just a steam demos allowed but okay.

22/03/2009 10:50:00

EPIC WIN

22/03/2009 11:17:00

omg suck .....

22/03/2009 11:17:00

Why XJ define non-steam clients illegal? Steam is holy crap shit and is nothing good or even related to the playing process of CS indeed. I use the serial number which is proved legal on steam registration to start my local server which has been cracked off the shitty steam, and play only with myself, could you show me what is wrong? Cowgirl is right, non-steam means ONLY that you cannot enter steamed servers, it's not illegal or other as faker said "self-evidence".

22/03/2009 11:26:00

Good job. All the guys who don't like the rule about the NO NONSTEAM are nonsteamers...

22/03/2009 11:29:00

Rules are fine for me. GJ

22/03/2009 11:30:00

NON steam! i never use steam and i don't want to buy steam.. RULES SUCK!

22/03/2009 11:37:00

noooo.....

22/03/2009 11:41:00

first of all, do not write amx. nearly everyone uses amxx which is still updated, had a opensource code and has more features than amx. ========================================== non-steam is a cracked version of cs which is illegal, also non-steam always used slightly other mechanics which made it different from the real cs. in every kind of competition the opponents should use the same utilitys which means in this case the same game and devices with which they can play the game like a gamepad, mouse, keyboard etc. this is just a rule which had to be added. ========================================== tbh the new timersystem seems kinda stupid to me since theoretically a demos which's timer says 10:30 can be beaten by a demo which's timer says 10:31. imo i see 2 possibilitys to have a nice working timer system: a) changing the demo list to show also hundredths (mm:ss:xx) depending on the time fps death shows. disadvantage: you would always need to check the fps death time. the ingame timer becomes worthless. b) using an amxx timer which everyone needs to use. this timer could either be a mm:ss timer or a timer like the one xj uses on his beta-server. the advantage would be that the timer can be watched in the demo (for example at the end of the run + the time could be shown while being in a run). also, this would mean that the demos have to be checked with the fps death time too since demos can be edited after the recording (changing the time, which the plugin prints).

22/03/2009 11:41:00

stem O_O - its suxx rules !!!!!!!!

22/03/2009 11:44:00

chrizZo - there are no good democonverters atm , the best one i found converted 4 demos out of 5 :) So i guess if some1 who plays non-steam will make quite a lot of WR's and converted them to 48 protocol and then submit them , there is big chance that quite a lot of them wont be played in thopa's cs :)

22/03/2009 11:47:00

Isn't it a bit unrespectful for the game that you can't pay 10 dollars for it, yet that's the game you're playing for 5 hours a day... I agree with SilverNinja on the 0.01 rule + all other rules mentioned on the newspost. What I don't agree with, is the rule s1gh is trying to defend: OMG! Why is it so unfair that you checkpoint/hook to a place before starting your run? Does that affect the run ITSELF? NO! Does it give advantage? NO! Does that save time for recorders? YES! Is that a bad thing? NO!

22/03/2009 11:51:00

SchlumPF The plugin actually sounds like a good idea. You said that it would give advantage to the jumper if he can see his time while jumping, Well... Isn't that pretty easy to forbid/disable on the plugin? Didn't know that the demos can be edited, but don't you always check the demos for cheats in fps-death anyway? So, actually I can't even think of any disadvantage of using a plugin timer like that.

22/03/2009 11:53:00

well i like the changes:P

22/03/2009 11:57:00

How do do find out whether is demo recorded on steam or nonsteam?

22/03/2009 11:59:00

Rptr22 ツ if you have Steam CS and try to run a NON Steam demo on 47 protocol using viewdemo, you get disconnected

22/03/2009 12:04:00

very bad..

22/03/2009 12:05:00

eusunt: he already know this way. But try to open "NS protocol 48" demo by viewdemo in steam. It works fine

22/03/2009 12:21:00

all demos with the protocol 48 are ok for now but we ll have to change it to steam-only at some time this year and if you don t use steam you wont even be able to record demos for xj this new rule is a preparation for that already and about all the steam is bad ppl ... you should think about how much you re playing cs and if 10bucks is worth it

22/03/2009 12:24:00

Flibo is just happy that everybody who will now try to beat his kz_j2s_icevalley, has to climb all the way up before he makes the sc :D !! I GOT YOU hehe

22/03/2009 12:43:00

rofl @all the complainers with gay arguments.. Gj admins

22/03/2009 12:58:00

"You said that it would give advantage to the jumper if he can see his time while jumping" this is a general advantage for everyone. with the new rules you have to check your time with fps death anyway, with the plugin you can see your time in the demo which makes it more handy. its far aways from being an advantage for the player against other players or a disadvantage for the idea i mentioned.

22/03/2009 13:03:00

if this changing and overwritiing of the rules goes further and further , one day you admins won't figure out whats right and whats wrong...so let it BEEE let it BEEE plz...

22/03/2009 13:06:00

:| bye bye xj, i dont will record anymore ;) i cant record in non steam with my PC!

22/03/2009 13:06:00

:| bye bye xj, i dont will record anymore ;) i cant record in steam with my PC!

22/03/2009 13:14:00

Good rules. The timer thing might still be a bit confusing for some people but you will get used to it. Only better thing would be the SchlumPF idea with identical amxx timer's. Just get rid of the damn KZ timer and start using amxx and fps death only.

22/03/2009 13:18:00

Hook/teleporters: You are allowed to use AMX features like teleporters or hook to get up to places you could climb up as well, means you are allowed to use them as a 'support tool' to save "sensless" climbtime before you start the actual run (because theoretically the same record would be possible without teleport/hook - it would only take much more time to get up there every time before you start a run). Love this one! But what will happen with current demos (like icevalley)? Will they be replaced even if someone is slower? Hopefully! :) Nice rules

22/03/2009 13:18:00

i lulz at xD Just buy the fucking game.... And why dont we all just use amxx timer! So there would be no timerbug shit and not stpid recs that are like 0.1 secs faster -.-

22/03/2009 13:27:00

eMTi: icevalley isnt against any rule.

22/03/2009 13:27:00

n1 rules exept the rules with the hook/teleporters :/ btw don't worry about PQST, he is just a big fag.

22/03/2009 13:41:00

oups, i missunderstood smth, i read that amx isnt allowed, sorry :/

22/03/2009 13:46:00

lol wtf

22/03/2009 13:47:00

FINALLY! Non-steam bye bye. Perfect rules. If you can't afford 10$ how the fuck did you afford a computer? Keep up the good work!

22/03/2009 13:54:00

Would be even better if you removed all non-steam demos since protocol 48 has been out.

22/03/2009 13:59:00

good rules!

22/03/2009 14:03:00

akkord: Stuff like that is STILL allowed. You did mis-read the rule :p - kunqui: [quote=]Another thing about NON-Steam and record holders: If you are one of the current record holders and can't buy Counter-Strike at steam, please contact me (IRC/PM) and we'll help you to get a CS 1.6 Steamaccount. [/quote] MSG me today and you'll have a Steam Account tomorrow, promised. - SilverNinja: I lulz'd at.... This rule was introduced by the swedish blooded dictator and badass nazi thopa (who made a big effort to unban Mehz). But hey, you got a point there!!!! - s1gh: Guess what, I did read the thread from the beginning to the end, and I just don't agree with the arguments given in the thread. Of course it is true that it would take much more time without teleporters, but it's not true that it would make such demos impossible.... It just would be way restrictive (nearly all record holders would complain about it... just ask them) and "bullying". Don't forget: Some ppl play 6hours in a row to get a record... And to label my arguments as excuses isn't very adult either. You just have to accept that not everybody agrees with you and that you might be in the minority with your opinion from time to time.

22/03/2009 14:05:00

Good changes!

22/03/2009 14:30:00

Kunqui diden't said that he can't affort a Steam account , he can't play with steam on his actually computer, i think =PP

22/03/2009 14:35:00

i think it's not good rules many people has got bad PC and can only record in non steam and many people can't buy in his city steam, my fps too small in steam i think was better if remove it's rules.

22/03/2009 14:38:00

(who made a big effort to unban Mehz). What has that got to do with anything? (Not trying to start something, I'm just wondering.)

22/03/2009 14:47:00

DantikuzZ read what SchlumPF has said @ chatbox. CS is over 10 years old, even a 5 year old PC would give you 100fps :/

22/03/2009 14:49:00

nilsen1: Non-steam bye bye. Perfect rules. If you can't afford 10$ how the fuck did you afford a computer? xDDDDDDDDD OMFG +2171236721432715435 :D:D:D I LIKE YOU DUDE

22/03/2009 14:51:00

Check SilverNinja's post Mehz ^^ He did bring that pointless accusation up in the first place, I just answered to it :p

22/03/2009 15:05:00

W00T! kzno_xtremeblock will be removed, kz_42_amazon and much-much-much more demos. :D Great news. Next demo submition will be like over 50 demos. :D

22/03/2009 15:10:00

Oh, I see now faker :P I just got confused :) No hard feelings then! :D

22/03/2009 15:16:00

Damn I was hoping I was going to be able to do bkz_goldbhop and coldbhop before the rules for steam O_o..

22/03/2009 15:19:00

This is just riddicilous, before posting make sure you understand English well. Thank you. Faker, I feel sorry for you 'cause you have to twist your nuts everytime you try to explain a simple thing 10 times in a row. You should have SchlumPF code you somewhat a bot to answer all these questions:D Read the "new rules post" 10 times and use a dictionary. PS. Good rules.

22/03/2009 15:20:00

NumB are you sure? I think they are not against rule.

22/03/2009 15:35:00

Faker@ "This discussion is one of the questions where ppl just do NOT agree and you (we) have to let the majority decide about what is "right". That's exactly what we did. So why do you accuse us that we wouldn't care about what people think?" For once, you and s1gh do not agree on this timer isse, as far as I know - you would still prefer having timerbug-wr's and enjoy the actual wrs? Anyway, that hasn't changed much - since I would still be able to pwn bhoptoon with two more skips and yet still wouldn't get the WR, even though it actually is the world best run so far. Because StormZz has an ingame time of 36.9, so I have to beat it with 1 sec, Now had it been 37.001, I could just beat the demo with 0.002 and get the WR- but this is much more reasonable isn't it? This just proves that your all your arguments about; "It's gay to watch the same demo only 0.9 sec better, lulz hi" is just complete bullshit, and this new demo-system is bullshit as well. At XJ 09, you guys still haven't been able to develop a system that accept and detects (well you can detect it, you just ignore it) the fastests runs.. And this was supposed to be big changes? To be frank, I could give shit about newcommers who wants to keep timerbug-demos and while not even providing the discussion with some proper arguments... Would you guys accept 100aa demos if the majority of the community - had clicked that in a poll? Then you go "But you wanted a democrazy" - now if a democrazy is a big poll, where you just ignores each and every comment if they don't match the "poll result", then you got something completely wrong.. Faker@"I did read your posts in the comments and I really thought and still think you that you got some good points, but the solutions you have suggest are just way too complex and won't happen (in the near future). Who knows what the future is going to bring, but they would need major changes in the demo script, a plugin with an exact timer, means things that are not really realistic atm... Could have posted that in the poll's comments, but I felt more like a normal user there since my opinion was "against the mainstream". So having a rule that says you are not allowed to push the start-button with more than 250-270units speed is more complexed than these new rules?

22/03/2009 15:36:00

sorry for misspelling as I was typing this fast,, "issue" etc..

22/03/2009 15:42:00

NumB has a lot of difficulty to understand a post with one reading, just wait a little. And yes, this maps are not against rule.

22/03/2009 15:47:00

+1 Gargoyle people still dont understand the rules! just play the game... if ur not sure that ur shortcut is allowed or not ask thopa... the badass swedish nazi is a pretty nice guy... he`ll help u with anything :) about non-steam : thats pretty restrictive... but hey ... its 10$ ...wtf? u people spend more money/week on cigarettes and soda haha :D

22/03/2009 15:49:00

spot on with the non steam rule imo.

22/03/2009 15:59:00

Can some of the whiners please explain to me how this timer rule makes any difference to kz in the last 4 years? I didn't hear any complaints when someone beat a record where they pressed the timer in the last moment of, say, 58 seconds and the previous record was 59 seconds, where the timer was pressed just as the timer flicked over to 59. This rule doesn't change this system at all, it just eliminates timer bugs....how hard is that to understand? P.S. [color=#cc3366]GJ HoHo^[/color]

22/03/2009 16:03:00

P.P.S s1gh, senseless is a word http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/senseless

22/03/2009 16:08:00

I have a news idea for crying-people Go forbidden edgebug, jumpbug, slide-bug, and other-bug in wr, and don't forget countjump too, duck is bug, and go delete the thread which speak about that. Go keep the timerbug, go delete all shortcuts, and go wait 60 min when you start you server, and made a news wr, this is easier for beat it. This is the best new rules 4 ever <3

22/03/2009 16:10:00

Oh, we do not agree with you - so we are crying people? Grow up. I don't have time right now, will maybe write later. But you just made yourself look really stupid that sarcastic pathetic comment Ryderc.

22/03/2009 16:19:00

Cheche, yes this is a immature post, but your revendication are immature too. The most part of the community accept and are agree with the news rules, but you and a small minority aren't agree with that. This is your opinion,this is okay, but a lot of thing must be changed, timerbug should be delete, this is normal, a wr with timerbug is unfair... For boost, this is a way for gaining time, this is the game, like sc with edgebug or jumpbug. The community change, that's life. This is not always a bad thing.

22/03/2009 16:27:00

I have steam account. I cant record on steam because my pc is bad...

22/03/2009 16:29:00

And with steam offline ?

22/03/2009 16:32:00

Erf kunqui, bad news :(

22/03/2009 16:36:00

[blockquote]Example: clintmo_longjumper[x]_Hanniball_0005.dem has an ingame time of 00:05 and a record time of 00:05:9. This means his demo is synchronized (not timerbugged) and you must make 00:04 ingame and 00:04:x (record time) to beat his demo.[/blockquote] so 00:04 ingame and 00:05:0x (record time) will be denied?

22/03/2009 16:38:00

faker wins

22/03/2009 16:38:00

yes spr1n because the record time is 5 seconds and the current record is 5 seconds

22/03/2009 16:49:00

cheche and other idiots: You're wrong. These rules are perfect. WHY should a time slower than the actual wr time be accepted? Ingame timer sucks, imo XJ shouldn't use it at all. Get a amxx(?) timer or something which's more correct.

22/03/2009 17:01:00

Whats the problem with actually PAYING for a game? Its not like it costs 50 euros.... Invest 10 fucking euros in a game you geek hours and hours and thats it -_- And imo there should be only amxx timer! Its exact and not that big of a problem -.- On publics its not a problem either so why make such a big deal out of putting it on lan????

22/03/2009 17:06:00

hate steam cause it took my pc a huge ram usage, almost a fps drop around 10-20fps when using steam compared to non-steam. the new demo rule would be great if i can run my cs without that sh*t steam application.

22/03/2009 17:09:00

[quote] Hook/teleporters: You are allowed to use AMX features like teleporters or hook to get up to places [b]you could climb up as well (1)[/b], means you are allowed to use them as a 'support tool' to save "sensless" climbtime before you start the actual run ([b]because theoretically the same record would be possible without teleport/hook - it would only take much more time to get up there every time before you start a run (2)[/b]). [/quote] (1) How are you going to check this? How do you know a climber is able to climb up there without showing it in the demo? I mean, even if it's theoritically possible to jump there, you don't know if the jumper is able to do it? In my opinion it shouldn't be allowed to use AMX to get to a place. However, the slide-sc should be allowed. You can use everything what a map offers and all of its advantages. So I think it's fair to use the fallspeed advantage of a map IF you are able to jump to the top by ur self and not by using tools like AMX or sv_gravity. So no tools, proof that you are skilled and dedicated enough to jump to the top and do the slide-sc correctly. And yes, if you fail, you will have to climb all the way up again from the respawn point. You will get rewarded for the hardwork eventually and that's how it works in life, doesn't it? (2) KZ isn't only about skills, it's also about dedication and motivation. Since you are allowing to use tools to get up to places you could climb up as well (which you should SHOW us anyways...), you are disadvantaging the people with more commitment and rewarding lazy people. But that will probably be a silly arguement to many people. [quote] but the majority thinks it's the better system and an improvement compared to the old one ... [/quote] Since when is the majority equal to the best solution? If you do you a national vote to raise the income x10, the majority will vote yes however I don't think it's a good idea for the economy because prices will raise insanely and the inflation will go crazy (look Zimbabwe LOL inflation 1000% each day). That's not a good example of a stable and healthy economy. The majority can't look into the future and predict problems. That's why sometimes a small (smart) group should take the decisions that are needed (for the majority) in order to be safe and certain in the future. So I do agree with s1gh. Don't listen to the people who scream the loudest (poll / majority), listen to the wise people with the best arguments. However, I don't say the decisions that XJ made, are or were bad. I don't even follow this up since my account was removed like 6 months ago by some weard admin who couldn't take criticism. But well, I don't care... got better things to do.

22/03/2009 17:22:00

Epic win for steam users pacsteam semisteam undeadsteam and so on is the same shit as nonsteam. Illegal shit!

22/03/2009 17:33:00

J!nx, rewarding lazy people? No... Rewarding people who don't want to waste 20 hours to geek a damn map because of a stupid rule which doesn't give you advantage in your run itself but makes you more nervous and wastes your time completely. You do have a good point on the (1) point though. That's a hole in the system, yes, but I don't think that you can make any advantage of it in any map.

22/03/2009 17:35:00

You could say that before starting an actual run you have to finish the map once without time, and start after that. So you would have to complete the map twice in order to get the record. That definitely makes you nervous and wastes your time if something... Just as ridiculous though.

22/03/2009 17:51:00

STEAM HAS A CONTRACT WITH XJ !!! Steam wants to sell more cs and xj is helping , thats for sure !!!

22/03/2009 17:53:00

Buy steam. Done. But I still don't see the point in still half using a inaccurate timer. Go 100% to using fps-death timer!

22/03/2009 18:06:00

If some one started the run from place which You dont think its possible to reach w/o hook, he would add to rar demo of his getting on this place as a proof. Thats my opinion. Thx

22/03/2009 18:06:00

If what omilo said is possible then why won't we go with it? I like the new rules. They're logical and fair!

22/03/2009 18:08:00

I'll just say thanks cheche and J1nX and I rest my case...

22/03/2009 18:09:00

cool..

22/03/2009 18:39:00

so what? no changes for me

22/03/2009 18:52:00

lol

22/03/2009 19:02:00

GAY CHANGES!

22/03/2009 19:05:00

Im recording at library with my non-steam CS. Too bad that I can only play like 2 hours in a row. I hate the workers at library, won't let me play more! :( [i]btw I hate reading this text. :E[/i]

22/03/2009 19:05:00

1) Steam was 5 bucks a few months ago 2) Steam has nothing to do with your FPS. Only uses 34,000k which is NOTHING. 3)Numb those demos aren't being removed... lawl. [blockquote] You are allowed to use AMX features like teleporters or hook to get up to places you could climb up as well,[/blockquote] . Amazon and xtremeblock are both places you can climb up to, to save senseless time as faker said. 4)+1 to Silverninja 5)Why was illegal steam even allowed in the first place 6) [color=#3366cc][b]WHAT THE [color=#990000]F[/color] -ajr[/b][/color] 7) [color=#0066ff]GJ HoHo^[/color]

22/03/2009 19:09:00

nilsen1, get lost from here. Calling people idiots 'cause of having a different opinion from yours is stupid. Should I call you a dickhead or motherfucker cause of your opinion now?

22/03/2009 19:14:00

I meant .. counter-strike was 5 bucks a few months ago :D

22/03/2009 19:38:00

Rules are fine for thees who had STEAM

22/03/2009 19:50:00

I agree with Cheche and Silverninja If the wr was beaten by 0.1 seconds that should be wr Being banned the press start over 250-270 units of speed

22/03/2009 20:02:00

nooo kunqui :( and lol @ ppl who cant read trying to make smart remarks

22/03/2009 20:18:00

[quote] J!nx, rewarding lazy people? No... Rewarding people who don't want to waste 20 hours to geek a damn map because of a stupid rule which doesn't give you advantage in your run itself but makes you more nervous and wastes your time completely. [/quote] Let's go back to the basic rules. [quote] You are not allowed to use any metamod-plugins that would give you [b]an advantage to other jumpers[/b]. [/quote] 1) Allowing AMX features like teleporters or hook to get up to places you could climb up as well, DOES give you an advantage in the ACTUAL run and it's actually very easy to make that clear. Because if these AMX features weren't allowed, almost nobody would do the slide-sc in a run because it takes a lot of time. So that implicates that there IS an effect on the actual run and that there is an advantage to other jumpers who doesn't use these features. The (positive) effect is the 1-2secs speedgain you get at the start. And that effect is gained by using unfair advantages like AMX. It's the same as using illegal steroids before a match but during the match you are clean. If you won the match, would it be fair? Matter of opinion... but imo it wouldn't. Just like this rule. [quote] You are allowed to use AMX features like teleporters or hook to get up to places you could climb up as well, means you are allowed to use them as a 'support tool' to save "sensless" climbtime before you start the actual run ([b]because theoretically the same record would be possible without teleport/hook[/b] - it would only take much more time to get up there every time before you start a run). [/quote] I think what I've put in bold is the big mistake in this rule. You are stating that if it's theoretically possible then it's also practically possible. That's not true. And that's actually the whole point.

22/03/2009 20:27:00

XJ decision so we have to accept it.And if u have fps low on steam when ur recording a demo its ur problem like supa said.My opion change ur pc :)

22/03/2009 20:39:00

jinx ist right guys

22/03/2009 21:05:00

jinx.. there are geeks out there who would do it anyways...so this just makes their lives less wasteful.

22/03/2009 21:32:00

[quote]I think what I've put in bold is the big mistake in this rule. You are stating that if it's theoretically possible then it's also practically possible. That's not true. And that's actually the whole point.[/quote] No, it's true. +1 Supa

22/03/2009 21:44:00

Why the hell would plugins be disallowed anyway. Anyone can get them.

22/03/2009 21:59:00

Supa? your risk_compound is against new rules, right?

22/03/2009 22:08:00

no you can climb up there... lolz.

22/03/2009 22:09:00

in like 4 seconds

22/03/2009 22:17:00

haha yeah I got it, lol..

22/03/2009 22:50:00

[quote] "You are allowed to use AMX features like teleporters or hook to get up to places you could climb up as well." "It's not allowed to use teleporters or hook to...[reach] an unreachable spot (to start the run from)." [/quote] I agree with J!nX^ that this is a poorly thought out rule. Whether or not reaching a place in a map is theoretically possible or not is impossible to determine. If there was a 270 unit jump that lead to an advantageous spot, would it be allowed to hook to that spot? How about 275 units... 280 units? There may not be any maps like this today, but that doesn't guarantee a map with this exception won't come up in the future.

22/03/2009 22:52:00

[quote] jinx.. there are geeks out there who would do it anyways...so this just makes their lives less wasteful. [/quote] Well, if they want to geek for that, let them geek for that? Their reward will be 1-2 seconds which they deserve, because they finished the map in a fair way. The same goes for shortcuts... some people don't want to geek it, well then don't geek it? But people who make the shortcut and have a faster time should get the wr... It seems like you are trying to say: 'let's make this rule because otherwhise I'm wasting too much time'. Then I would advise you to stop playing KZ because you will always have to put some time into it. Why don't we make a rule for shortcuts then? So you can use +hook for shortcuts too, so I don't have to geek for that neither. Seems odd but what's the difference? I don't think we should make rules based on less time consuming. We have to make logic rules that support the basics of KZ and that is climbing a map in the fastest and fairest way possible. Not less time consuming. If you want to make rules for that then I suggest you to forbid the slide-sc because everybody is able to do it and it just wastes more time... Anyways, this is a discussion about opinions. Some people think it's fair, others dont. I don't think there is a right solution. For me the discussion ends here because we can talk on for hours like this.

22/03/2009 22:59:00

[quote] No, it's true. [/quote] Let's bet for 100 bucks that I can make a map that is theoretically possible to finish but that you will never make it for real? Tell me your cj, lj and bhop max.

22/03/2009 23:01:00

nilsen1@ "cheche and other idiots: You're wrong. These rules are perfect. WHY should a time slower than the actual wr time be accepted? Ingame timer sucks, imo XJ shouldn't use it at all. Get a amxx(?) timer or something which's more correct. " WTF! Now exactly how exactly how stupid are you? Haha that was hilarious, "WHY should a time slower than the actual wr time be accepted?" Good point, now you go ahead and answer it, because that is one of my best arguments for not having these rules. Let's take clintmo_bhoptoon again as an example; the currunt wr has 36.9 fps and 36 ingame Say you do clintmo_bhoptoon in 36.3 fps time - 36 in game time. According to these rules your demo wouldnt get accepted as WR, because the original WR doesn't have a timer bug. So let me quote you again: "WHY should a time slower than the actual wr time be accepted?" Who is the real idiot here?

22/03/2009 23:02:00

sry for double-exactly lol

22/03/2009 23:07:00

XJ lose so many players now =]

22/03/2009 23:10:00

[quote]Let's bet for 100 bucks that I can make a map that is theoretically possible to finish but that you will never make it for real? Tell me your cj, lj and bhop max.[/quote] How did that even relate to anything? We're talking about the amazon sc, it doesn't matter if I jump to the top or hook there, the sc is still possible.

22/03/2009 23:19:00

My text: (a respond to a quote of the rules) [quote] I think what I've put in bold is the big mistake in this rule. You are stating that if it's theoretically possible then it's also practically possible. That's not true. And that's actually the whole point. [/quote] Your comment: [quote] No, it's true. [/quote] So you are saying that theory and practice are the same. So I wanted to show you that there is a big gap between theory and practice. And I'm probably blind but where the fuck do you see me talking about the amazon sc? :D I'm talking in general... but goodnight. :)

22/03/2009 23:21:00

I applaud J1nX, cheche, and silver for having the patience to continue to argue with these people. There's no need to say I agree with all of you, but as I said before, unless XJ changes the following, nothing will matter: "Is anyone going to read it? Maybe a few people. Is anyone going to do anything about it? No. Really, you want people to be more active, but all you're doing by ignoring people who make logical arguments is just discourage them from ever taking part and trying to help you find the best way to solve a problem." Let's see if faker reads this, haha. Apparently none of the other admins can make a decision themselves. Honestly, all the other admins - thopa, omilo, everyone else - they agree with what we're saying but they're not really doing anything about it. Come on guys...

22/03/2009 23:21:00

cheche you're arguing about something that's been a rule on XJ since XJ began. The new rule doesn't change anything, apart from to remove timer bugs.

22/03/2009 23:28:00

+100 btw J!nX^.... You brought up some really strong arguments. And to you Flibo, you're a smart guy; forget about your freaking icevalley demo and then read J1nX^ posts over and over again. To this day I still don't get why you are pro this, apart from the fact that you have that icevalley demo.. You could get it without it anyway as you say.. And you have no proper arguments left either , other than saying +1 Supa because he wants to keep his demo as well. Imagine KZ without any plugins whatsoever - that is how KZ is supposed to be played imo. Now if you make a CP close to the timer, so you don't have to run for 5 secs - I can live with that. But if you make a CP on top of a mountain - you are abusing the plugins. Period.

22/03/2009 23:32:00

I know that soulftw - but I have been against time-rules since I started playing KZ. When I first started playing KZ, I thought that all the demos in Record Demos section were the fastests. Later I found out that, that is not always the case - since that I have been against it. The fastests demo = WR. The ingame timer doesn't mean shit to me tbh.

22/03/2009 23:35:00

And if we are honest, the news rules don't changes anything, except for the non-steam users... We always can't use plugins during a run, we can't start a run on a imp lands, and we start a big release for delete all timerbuged wr. Where is the problem...

22/03/2009 23:38:00

hahah cheche i know, nilsen agrees with you yet he calls you an idiot, its hilarious. I read somewhere that edark is working on some sort of anti cheat program that you'll have to keep open at all times when recording, so then the best solution is to just integrate an accurate timer in it that will show up IN-GAME. If KZ wants to become something serious and not just something that gets laughed at, then i see no reason to continue using the crappy kreedz timer at all (which we still use).

22/03/2009 23:40:00

"Imagine KZ without any plugins whatsoever - that is how KZ is supposed to be played imo. " Then play it that way and don't watch demos from XJ. Or form your own community. WTF do you want anyway?

22/03/2009 23:57:00

[quote]You cannot beat a demo by 0.x or less, unless it falls under the category of the rule above. -> Example: clintmo_longjumper[x]_Hanniball_0005.dem has an ingame time of 00:05 and a record time of 00:05:9. This means his demo is synchronized (not timerbugged) and you must make 00:04 ingame and 00:04:x (record time) to beat his demo.[/quote] what about fairyisland, goldbhop, mountez, etc? [quote]BUT: It's not allowed to use teleporters or hook to get an unfair advantage, means gaining more speed or reaching an unreachable spot (to start the run from).[/quote] that means maps like bhopocean, bhopsnow will have new records? [quote]NON-Steam demos are not allowed.[/quote] why? :S im not rlly agree with this new rules, but, i can't do anything xP

23/03/2009 00:03:00

This is just an endless discussion of BS coming back and forth. @J!nX^: "I mean, even if it's theoritically possible to jump there, you don't know if the jumper is able to do it?" You seriously kidding me? I'm sorry, but that is just waste of fucking time. Of course it makes sense, but what the hell does it matter whether he can he get to the spot when he CAN finish the map? Your point being is that player has to do a part of the map which isn't even related to the whole demo... Block 1 and 2 are in the same level, you need to get to block 3. Do you go on block 1 to get to block 3? OFC NOT. Happy that you didnt base your opinion for just that argument. Now, the gap between theory and practice isn't as big as you think, its the same thing in the end... Something being possible to do in THEORY is also possible to do in practice. Theory is just a dreamers way of thinking, when there are people who aren't just theorizing. I'm sorry for making so silly comments but this is just becoming a ridiculous spam of nonsense posts. Get to your points with lesser words of mockery. s1gh I wont even bother explaining the simplest thing to you cause of that childish and idiotic attitude "Is anyone going to read it? Maybe a few people" grow up for real. You are a part of community and you are hiding behind your sad emo talk. +1 Silver for pointing out the true fact: why should slower time be the "best time". I dont really have an answer for you, except: suck it up. No one can be perfect, especially man-made rules. There are holes here and there, but this hole is a minor hole. PS. I'm not trying to be mean and insult either Jinx, Silver or even S1gh. Trying to create a wake up call and make you read your comments again. Complaining about the petty things, stop it... How does this update change anything? Soul, +1*10^32.

23/03/2009 00:06:00

@r0fl i was always saying we need exact times too and we have the possibility to get the exact time but as it seems most ppl don t want wrs to be beaten with times like 0.01 sec except if the real time switches the second infront of it as unlogic as it may be ;)

23/03/2009 00:12:00

best change ever by not allowing non steam versions anymore nearly everybody who is complaining about that is kinda retarded imo. to make records means that u have to spent much time in this hobby and when its not worth 10 dollars for you then its really really sad and why are some ppl arguing about that plugin/addon stuff? the hook and teleporter rule is good its exactly what it should be

23/03/2009 00:18:00

These rules are PERFECT! Thanks admins :) GJ.

23/03/2009 00:19:00

cheche it would be kind of pointless to watch someone do a 6 min map... fall down do the sc.. then watch them do the map again.

23/03/2009 00:29:00

I agree with you Supa but, you are just feeding whiners more beef to talk about. They know it in their mind that it really is a dumb idea to change it that way but they feel rebellious and the fact that they dont like admins way of dressing this new rule update to words is truly inflicting them. Sad really...

23/03/2009 00:37:00

Sorry, wrong of me to say whiners, ment people who are against this rule update. Got carried away for a while, sorry for my weakness. Dont tackle on that small mistake, kkthx. Sorry for possible dp.

23/03/2009 01:03:00

What do mappers think about those new rules actually? I think they have a big stake in this? To be honest, if I was a mapper and I would have set a respawn point at the bottom of the map, then that's the place to start at. I think it's the mapper that decides where you start at. If you want to go to another place in the map to start at then you have to climb your way up there in a legal and fair way... easy as that. If you don't like that, then don't do it. If you want to climb up the map and fall down to gain some seconds that's fine for me but don't fly to the top with some unfair tools? And it's not because you don't use plugins during the actual run that your run is fair. If I'm using a plugin that will raise my speed to 2000 and just before I push the start button I'll put the plugin off so during the actual run I'm not using any illegal plugins. That sounds fair?! No, because I will still gain some unfair advantages (in this case impossible advantages) from the tools that I used before pressing the button. It's almost the same with this rule, except the fact that you can't gain 2000 speed in a normal way(impossible). But you still gain an advantage... which one? 1-2 seconds and the actual advantage is that you had to put less effort into it. [quote] Something being possible to do in THEORY is also possible to do in practice.[/quote] And your conclusion is like? 'in theory it's possible to get there, so I can use the +hook.' Why the hell would we finish a map then? In theory I can finish every map but I have to SHOW it that I can... Btw gargoyle, the place where you teleport yourself to doesn't always have to be part of the run, does it? [quote] cheche it would be kind of pointless to watch someone do a 6 min map... fall down do the sc.. then watch them do the map again. [/quote] Yes supa, of course I agree with that... that's logic. However we aren't discussing about the fact that it would be nice to watch. Otherwhise people would forbid shortcuts, most maps are destroyed by shortcuts. It's about climbing a map in a FAIR way. And maybe you can find a solution for that... let the admins cut the demos so just let them check if he did the demo in a fair and legal way and then remove the part before he presses the startbutton? -- The fact that you think this is silly (gargoyle) is because it's actually the truth lol. The only thing you say is that it is stupid, silly and ridiculous to climb up there. LOL, of course it is annoying and timewasting, but we aren't discussing about that? Does it matter that it's stupid? A shortcut is fucking stupid too however we need to do it, to get the worldrecord. It's stupid but it's FAIR? Your arguements aren't real arguements... but nice show though... trying to make me look like a fool. :) [quote] PS. I'm not trying to be mean and insult either Jinx, Silver or even S1gh. Trying to create a wake up call and make you read your comments again. Complaining about the petty things, stop it... How does this update change anything? [/quote] If you don't want to insult me then don't, because you did. And I'm not complaining, why should I complain? I don't even play KZ anymore. I'm trying to help, criticism you know? However, you are complaining though. :) And no, I don't have to check my posts 2 times. I'm not blind, that's my opinion and it won't change until you got some good arguements.

23/03/2009 01:24:00

Hey, it's also theoretically possible to do a 500 unit jump with scripts. It's theoretically possible to do goldbhop in 1:22, and it's theoretically possible that faker wouldn't ignore our posts. @Supa: The point is, if you made it so that you had to climb up to the top of the map to do a dropdown sc and not hook up there, people just wouldn't do it. A person wouldn't waste 6 minutes climbing a map to gain 2 seconds, instead he'll just add a bhop or something. Someone would only actually do that when it's a bigger sc, like in icevalley. Personally, I think that a demo on icevalley in which someone climbs up and then does the drop sc without hook would be really impressive, and it wouldn't abuse amxx. Gargoyle... Haha.. "s1gh I wont even bother explaining the simplest thing to you cause of that childish and idiotic attitude 'Is anyone going to read it? Maybe a few people' grow up for real. You are a part of community and you are hiding behind your sad emo talk." "I'm not trying to be mean and insult either Jinx, Silver or even S1gh." So basically, you can't make a good argument. Instead what you're doing is calling me a child with an idiotic attitude who hides behind his emo talk. And then you tell me that you're not insulting me. Please, come up with something worthwhile for me to respond to... By the way, I'm really sorry sometimes that I am part of this "community."

23/03/2009 01:56:00

ok im gonna go record myself climb and fall up and down a map for 2 hrs.. then im gonna do the sc and my perfect run. have fun watching the wr. [b]LOL[/b]

23/03/2009 02:00:00

also sigh it isn't abusing amxx. I had to record when there wasn't any amxx... I used sv_gravity to practice jumps etc... same thing.

23/03/2009 02:20:00

After reading all these comments, I've decided that I am far too late to intervene, thus and width holding my final opinion on the entire matter.

23/03/2009 02:22:00

Oh, but I will say this, when ndR beat that snow level, the name escapes me at this time, but when he beat it and used the hook to fly up and then jump down at the timer, no one complained. As I remember, we all thought he did a great job. Just throwing it out there..

23/03/2009 02:51:00

Supa +1:D. Ok, so. First, S1gh. "So basically, you can't make a good argument. Instead what you're doing is calling me a child with an idiotic attitude who hides behind his emo talk. And then you tell me that you're not insulting me." But, you are being amazingly childish, I know and I've heard many things about you being a good guy and a smart one even. But here's the catch even though you might be all those things you aren't really seeing my comments without having an opinion already in your mind. You deny to see the fact that you truly are being immature. The point of me not making a "good" argument is basically... I dont care talking to a child or a person acting childisly about logic or politics. I'm still not insulting you I'm telling you to snap out of it... S1gh I'm telling you how and what do you look like after your comments in other peoples eyes. Perhaps not the ones who agrees with you 'cause they are biased, just like you. Jinx, pff... old record still playing. This is a comment you just said: "'in theory it's possible to get there, so I can use the +hook.' Why the hell would we finish a map then? In theory I can finish every map but I have to SHOW it that I can..." And this is a comment you said earlier: "KZ isn't only about skills, it's also about dedication and motivation." So in the end, if KZ isn't only about skill why the hell would you need to show can you do other parts of the map when you have the dedication and motivation to do a demo with the sc... Can you see the conflict? If KZ isnt only about skill why do we need to prove us to you or anyone that we can do the map? "I'm trying to help, criticism you know? However, you are complaining though." Sure as hell I'm complaining, why shouldn't I. I'm not trying to make you look bad, I'm trying to make your opinion look the less better. Sure you can translate that I'm trying to make your opinion look wrong, but isn't that the point? When you are giving constructive critisism leave your opinions about (in this case) xj outside. S1gh this is truly for you. You have set an eye for making xj look bad. Jinx on the other had is actually giving me something to think about. Back to the topic. You want good arguments? How about you giving me something back instead of people proving that jumper has tobe worthy of a wr? Can you please tell me for example how kz_fairy_island should be done? You cannot get in the secret room without jumping outside the map. You have to finish the map and after that you can start doing the actual run. Some and many maps with scs like that have absolutely nothing to do with the map. And please tell me that you have to do every bhop map without a single skip before you can start skipping blocks? Or don't I have to prove you then that I can indeed do the map with every possible jump? Some scs are harder then any jump in the map, why do you need to prove you can do 200 unit jump when you already did 250 unit jump? Ok, some maps might have an easy sc. But what is the reason for doing the map differently when you can do the map much faster by doing the sc? World records as you may know, are all about speed and skill. Doing a world record is totally different thing. But the demo is only about how fast you can do that map. kz_j2s_icevalley is a good example. I trust that you are familiar with Flibo's way of doing the map. Why should Flibo do rest of the map when it is not essential to the demo he is doing? Real life example. You need to program a clock for your friend, why should you use notepad to code when you can you tools that make you do it faster? Why does the programmer have to prove that he can do a program with notepad? Why can't people just do the demo the way it is supposed to? If you answer this: Who needs to see Supa fail 2 hrs in a map and do the sc? And if this "complaining" wasn't clear enough. Lets say there is a map where you can skip 90% of the map with one jump in the beginning. Tell me why does the jumper need to do the 90% of the map, when that 90% is completely irrelevant to the thing you are doing? Why is it so necessary to do the unnecessary? I've put the same question in so many words I'm hoping you would answer it. And dont give me crap not giving you a point when you can't give me anything else then the jumper has to prove his skills by doing the NON-ESSENTIAL part of the map. PS. If you give me crap about AMXX maps such as bhopocean, I'll cry. PPS. How do you know if the mapper didnt do the sc's on purpose? Or maybe the mapper was just too sloppy and hasty to do the map. Now I got the wrath of every mapper on me.

23/03/2009 03:44:00

[quote=Gargoyle]You need to program a clock for your friend, why should you use notepad to code when you can you tools that make you do it faster?[/quote] Nice comparison, cheers for this. It's exactly the same for the kz-records... Why should people go the hard way and actually climb up the whole map and record it EVEN before the start button is activated.... It doesn't belong to the record run and it is more than irrelevant. Hooking/teleporting up there just saves time, like using the /start command to get to the start button faster. No one complained about that one either... - [quote=J!nX^]I mean, even if it's theoritically possible to jump there, you don't know if the jumper is able to do it?[/quote] lol.... Why do you even bother to post such absurd things? Just watch the kzno_xtremeblock or the kz_stoneblock_ez records, probably the best examples: They start their run from the top/end of the map to jump down and get a speedboost on the startbutton, and then they obviously have to do the map again. So that pretty much proves that they can get up there without hook, doesn't it? :D [quote=J!nX^]]I think it's the mapper that decides where you start at. If you want to go to another place in the map to start at then you have to climb your way up there in a legal and fair way... easy as that. If you don't like that, then don't do it. If you want to climb up the map and fall down to gain some seconds that's fine for me but don't fly to the top with some unfair tools?[/quote] Well, I guess the mappers don't want to see people using a nullbug or invisible 1 inch texture to skip half of the map either, but if it's possible in the map people will use it and they have to live with it. The XJ rules are NOT made to restrict the jumpers/recorders in their will to complete the map (from the start button to the end button) as fast as possible... If you can jump down to get a boost on the start button that's a map issue, just like an invisible wall that was forgotten and makes a big shortcut possible.... if people want to use AMX to get up there instead of spending 5 minutes to climb up there, so be it... Only thing that shouldn't be allowed is that ppl set teleporters in the air on maps which aren't affected by bugs like this... this would be abusing AMX. Simple as that once you think about it from the right perspective. - [quote=s1gh]Let's see if faker reads this, haha. Apparently none of the other admins can make a decision themselves. Honestly, all the other admins - thopa, omilo, everyone else - they agree with what we're saying but they're not really doing anything about it. Come on guys... [/quote] It's funny (more pathetic I guess) to see how you think you know more about what is going on "behind the scenes" at XJ than we XJ admins do... Just for your information: The changes were discussed amongst the admins for a long time, posted in the admin forum recently and finally I was the person who updated the rules page (pretty difficult) and informed the public about it ... So these are not "MY" rules... These are OUR rules. But go on with your conspiracy theories if that really makes you feel better.

23/03/2009 03:50:00

I'm not going to respond to the whole text because then we can sell a book. :D I think you miss interpreted some things. I'm totally not against (normal) shortcuts. To be honest, I love them. Most of the time it's very easy to do them and you will finish a map a lot faster. I'm not even against the SLIDE-SC, I'm only against HOW it is achieved or made. If it's made by just using the map blocks (climbing) then it's OK, if it's by using tools like teleport, +hook or sv_gravity then it's not. Of course, if you do a shortcut then you don't have to do the other part that you skipped with the shortcut lol. Because you did that shortcut in a fair way. But the SLIDE-sc isn't executed in a fair way if you used AMX tools or even sv_gravity because you used something that the map doesn't offer you and you DID have an advantage in the actual run eventually... I know it sounds silly but eventually it's just the same as a normal shortcut, I can't see why it's so different? Why do you complain so much about this and not about normal shortcuts? You also have to geek those? Do you want to see someone trying a sc for 2 hours? No and you never will because he will have to record a new demo just like when you fail at the slide-sc? And like I said, maybe admins can even skip the slide-sc part, or atleast the part where he is climbing up to the point he has to be. Like I said before, rules shouldn't make demos more exciting or fun to watch. They should check if the demo was recorded in a fair way. And that's the whole point. I'm giving arguments about why it's NOT fair. You are giving arguments why it is stupid and silly. That's a different discussion. If I do a sc in the middle of a map and I fail, can I start at the same point then again before the sc or make a checkpoint there? No, I can't, unless the mapper has made a respawn point there, I will have to start allover again. That's just the same with the slide-sc at the start. It's not because you didn't have pressed the start button yet that you can do whatever you want in a map... except using the things that a map offers, and AMX or sv_gravity is not included. And again, I don't have anything against XJ, nor gargoyle, nor supa or Flibo. I don't know why you take this so personal. If I was trying to rebel (like you say LOL) then I wouldn't be posting these posts and spending 30mins to this discussion.. I would be spamming like hell with fake IP's and proxys.

23/03/2009 03:54:00

wtF

23/03/2009 03:59:00

Yeah, I did understand what you are talking about and I didn't misinterpret your text: [quote=faker]It's exactly the same for the kz-records... Why should people go the hard way and actually climb up the whole map and record it EVEN before the start button is activated.... It doesn't belong to the record run and it is more than irrelevant. Hooking/teleporting up there just saves time, like using the /start command to get to the start button faster. No one complained about that one either...[/quote] Pretty much covers it I guess ^^

23/03/2009 04:09:00

[quote] It doesn't belong to the record run and it is more than iirrelevant. Hooking/teleporting up there just saves time, like using the /start command to get to the start button faster. No-one complained about that one either... [/quote] What's the thing with saving time wtf? Then make checkpoints for shortcuts allowed too because when I reach a shortcut and I fail, everyone knows I can jump to there so it's just timewasting, why should I need to do the run allover again. Now you will probably say: that's in the RUN you freaking noob. Yes, I KNOW but ONCE AGAIN, what happens before pressing the fucking start button is also RELEVANT to check if a worldrecord is made in a fair way. Why is it relevant? Because it can have an EFFECT on the ACTUAL run? And I already made this clear in previous posts. If you didn't used these tools then the run wouldn't contain the slide-sc or atleast it would be harder so there is an ADVANTAGE / positive effect on the actual run. Damn, so many words for such a simple thing to understand. I don't say you have to agree with me. I just hope you understand my point. [quote] Why do you even bother to post such absurd things? [/quote] Cheers man. +1 Admin I'm gone. Good luck solving your problems.

23/03/2009 04:23:00

Alright Gargoyle man, I know it can be difficult for you two string two sentences together and still make sense, but next time at least try to proofread what you wrote so I'll know what the hell you're talking about. I just wanna tell you that I don't care if you think I'm smart or not, and I don't care if you think I'm immature or not, and I REALLY don't care how other people see my posts. So please, spare me your retarded lectures about snapping out of "it." Your post is one giant contradiction comprised of ten smaller contradictions. I already said I'm not gonna deal with this by rewriting what I think about these topics again and again, but I'll gladly point out all of the contradictions just to make you look like an idiot. "So in the end, if KZ isn't only about skill why the hell would you need to show can you do other parts of the map when you have the dedication and motivation to do a demo with the sc... Can you see the conflict? If KZ isnt only about skill why do we need to prove us to you or anyone that we can do the map?" Can YOU see the conflict?? He was saying that you need dedication and motivation to do a demo with the sc because you DO need a shitload of dedication to do those scs when it's necessary to climb up the map without hook before starting your run. This isn't about showing that you can finish the map, it's about not abusing functions like hook to do shortcuts that would take a lot of motivation without it. "Sure as hell I'm complaining, why shouldn't I. I'm not trying to make you look bad, I'm trying to make your opinion look the less better. Sure you can translate that I'm trying to make your opinion look wrong, but isn't that the point?" Oh, you're not attempting (and failing) to make it look bad, you're just trying to make it less better. That totally makes sense - you think his opinion is good, but you want it to not be good. "When you are giving constructive critisism leave your opinions about (in this case) xj outside. S1gh this is truly for you. You have set an eye for making xj look bad." Dude, what are we talking about here? This is ONLY about XJ and its rules. I can't leave XJ out of a discussion about XJ's rules, especially when the XJ admins choose to conveniently ignore every logical argument made in those discussions. "Can you please tell me for example how kz_fairy_island should be done? You cannot get in the secret room without jumping outside the map. You have to finish the map and after that you can start doing the actual run. Some and many maps with scs like that have absolutely nothing to do with the map. And please tell me that you have to do every bhop map without a single skip before you can start skipping blocks? Or don't I have to prove you then that I can indeed do the map with every possible jump?" What the hell are you even talking about? First of all, you're talking about a map with an intentional secret room by the mapper. That's why it has two routes, because the mapper intended for there to be another way to quickly complete the map. Second, this discussion is not about skips in a bhop map, it is about the abuse of hook and checkpoints. This has nothing to do with banning shortcuts. "Some scs are harder then any jump in the map, why do you need to prove you can do 200 unit jump when you already did 250 unit jump? Ok, some maps might have an easy sc. But what is the reason for doing the map differently when you can do the map much faster by doing the sc? World records as you may know, are all about speed and skill. Doing a world record is totally different thing. But the demo is only about how fast you can do that map." Alright this one's too much for me, let's go through part by part: "Some scs are harder then any jump in the map, why do you need to prove you can do 200 unit jump when you already did 250 unit jump?" Alright, so if I recorded separate demos of myself doing insane bhop combos on every part of kz_a2_godspeed, I proved that I can do all of them, right? Does that mean that I could just easily string them together in a run and do the map in 4 minutes? I don't think so. "Ok, some maps might have an easy sc. But what is the reason for doing the map differently when you can do the map much faster by doing the sc?" What? "World records as you may know, are all about speed and skill. Doing a world record is totally different thing. But the demo is only about how fast you can do that map." Hmmm. I just can't quite crack this one. I follow you on the first sentence - world records are about speed and skill. But then world records are totally different. Sorry, I kind of lost you on the difference between a world record, a world record, and a demo. "kz_j2s_icevalley is a good example. I trust that you are familiar with Flibo's way of doing the map. Why should Flibo do rest of the map when it is not essential to the demo he is doing? Real life example. You need to program a clock for your friend, why should you use notepad to code when you can you tools that make you do it faster? Why does the programmer have to prove that he can do a program with notepad? Why can't people just do the demo the way it is supposed to? If you answer this: Who needs to see Supa fail 2 hrs in a map and do the sc?" "And if this "complaining" wasn't clear enough. Lets say there is a map where you can skip 90% of the map with one jump in the beginning. Tell me why does the jumper need to do the 90% of the map, when that 90% is completely irrelevant to the thing you are doing? Why is it so necessary to do the unnecessary? I've put the same question in so many words I'm hoping you would answer it. And dont give me crap not giving you a point when you can't give me anything else then the jumper has to prove his skills by doing the NON-ESSENTIAL part of the map." You couldn't have chosen a worse comparison. Okay, let's go along with it though. The programmer's goal is to program the clock as fast as possible right? Well, why don't I just start the timer and hook all the way up to the end of the map - it's much faster than actually climbing it, right? Don't you see how bad your examples are? KZ is not about saving yourself time on shortcuts, it's about seeing who can string together the best run, with the best bhops, and the best shortcuts. Not who can gocheck fastest up to the top with amxx. "How do you know if the mapper didnt do the sc's on purpose? Or maybe the mapper was just too sloppy and hasty to do the map. Now I got the wrath of every mapper on me." You really think mappers want people to avoid their jumps with unintentional scs? Yay, faker posted. Too bad he didn't post anything worthwhile. "It's exactly the same for the kz-records... Why should people go the hard way and actually climb up the whole map and record it EVEN before the start button is activated.... It doesn't belong to the record run and it is more than irrelevant. Hooking/teleporting up there just saves time, like using the /start command to get to the start button faster. No one complained about that one either..." One tiny difference is that /start doesn't skip over the whole map along the way. See what I said about his random fairy_island example. I think I pretty much beat this dead horse of a topic enough, don't you think? This was originally the least of my worries. As I told supa before, I care much less about the dropdown scs than about the timer and the admins ignoring logical arguments. You haven't been able to provide me with one good reason why the timer is not in milliseconds (head over to Cypress Climbing if you want to see how it should be done). You'd probably still be sure I want the old timer if I didn't keep telling you to try and read what I've been saying all this time. "It's funny (more pathetic I guess) to see how you think you know more about what is going on 'behind the scenes' at XJ than we XJ admins do... Just for your information: The changes were discussed amongst the admins for a long time, posted in the admin forum recently and finally I was the person who updated the rules page (pretty difficult) and informed the public about it ... So these are not 'MY' rules... These are OUR rules." Are you so sure you really know what's going on? I'm not. I was the reason thopa posted that thread about the change to milliseconds in the admin forum in the first place. We've spent hours discussing the timer ever since that release bibo beat coldbhop_v2, and we've gone through and through the whole drop down shortcut a million times. In fact, if you actually tried to find out what the other admins think before you posted the rules, you'd know that thopa was completely against the drop-down from the beginning. The only reason he allowed it was that there wasn't a rule against it, yet. We even figured out, and I suggested, a plethora of rules that could have worked to stop people from using the unfair abuse of hook and checkpoints. Oh, and just so you know, supa also didn't like this rule at first, and was willing to have his records removed if a rule was made. The only thing that stopped the rule from being made was that thopa didn't know what to do about the axn maps, to which both supa and I agreed that they should be treated differently than normal maps. I'm not blaming thopa for not doing anything, but now that there are so many records that violate this unwritten rule, it's much harder to deal with. Thopa's not the only admin, by the way: "Good rules. The timer thing might still be a bit confusing for some people but you will get used to it. Only better thing would be the SchlumPF idea with identical amxx timer's. Just get rid of the damn KZ timer and start using amxx and fps death only." I'm guessing you didn't spend your precious time going through all the comments, but that's your fellow admin omilo. He agrees with these rules, but he obviously also thinks the timer should be based on fps death only. As I wrote to you in the poll about 5 fucking times, there shouldn't have been a vote on this half-method and the old kz-timer only method, it should have been ingame timer vs. fps death only. But you ignored me back then too, and now it's spiraled into this fucking poo-slinging fest no one can win because you were so busy stroking your ego in front of the mirror instead of fucking doing something about the problems and reading what people with logical arguments had to say. I hope you're fucking happy faker, no one can win this argument now. "But go on with your conspiracy theories if that really makes you feel better. " You should ask chrizzo what I think about conspiracy theories before you judge me.

23/03/2009 04:26:00

"SLIDE-sc isn't executed in a fair way if you used AMX tools or even sv_gravity because you used something that the map doesn't offer you and you DID have an advantage in the actual run eventually..." Map does offer you falling speed.

23/03/2009 04:33:00

Yes, I didn't say you couldn't use it. However if you want to use it then you have to do it with the basics... climbing to the top. Let's make a final clear statement. I'll use the metaphore that I used before: It's the same as using illegal steroids before a match to get stronger in less time but during the match you are clean. If you won the match, would it be fair? Faker would say yes because you could achieve the same thing without steroids, it would just takes more time. And I say: UNFAIR like this rule.

23/03/2009 04:36:00

what a fuck non-steam rules

23/03/2009 04:45:00

I just can't stop laughing sorry:D. FIRST OF ALL: Alright, so if I recorded separate demos of myself doing insane bhop combos on every part of kz_a2_godspeed, I proved that I can do all of them, right? Does that mean that I could just easily string them together in a run and do the map in 4 minutes? I don't think so. Does FoF jumping xtremeblock up and down trying to do the timer-slide make him do the map under 2min? What the hell, that example has nothing to do with the time. That example has something to do with the fact that does a player have to jump up to prove himself worthy of a wr. NO, no it doesn't I guess you are just reading sentences without chapter divisions and just trying to point out MY controversies when obviously your arguments has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make clear. "You really think mappers want people to avoid their jumps with unintentional scs?" Sorry for this, but how the fuck do you know? Many maps have arrows and many mappers HAVE PLANNED their scs. GJ for trying tho. "Well, why don't I just start the timer and hook all the way up to the end of the map - it's much faster than actually climbing it, right?" Rofl, you are absolutely right. Oh, wait a minute? If you hook to the stop its like copying someone elses program making it NOT YOURS. This is just hilarious, your comments keep getting worse and worse, I guess I pressed a button there. "You should ask chrizzo what I think about conspiracy theories before you judge me." Rofl :D chrizZo is just having a laugh? You are the anarchist here. Best of the day: "That totally makes sense - [b]you think his opinion is good[/b], but you want it to not be good." Yes indeed I'm fighting almost 6 am with you and Jinx because I think its a GREAT IDEA. Wow thank you Mr. Freud. PS. Copying my whole text wont get you very far, especially when you are trying to point out my controversies, oh right. You didn't do that either.

23/03/2009 04:46:00

@ s1gh Serious, respect dude. I didn't want to respond to the whole comment of gargoyle because I was so fucking tired of this. The whole post didn't make sense and it was a waste of my time if I would replayed. But anyways, thanks for clearing this up. Really a shame that XJ is losing guys like you...

23/03/2009 04:47:00

Sorry for dp, but noticed Jinx's comment. I see your example steroids as a cheat, not as a 'lame sc'. I just think using a timerslide is like hiring Usain Bolt to run for you. Thanks

23/03/2009 04:57:00

OMG, you can use the timerslide, that's not the cheat. The cheat is the fucking teleport and hook thing. I really hope you are just kidding me right now.

23/03/2009 04:57:00

have fun in life j!nX^. Thanks for writing us a grand novel.

23/03/2009 04:58:00

Gargoyle, dude... I am not going to waste energy writing another novel showing you that you're wrong again. Sometimes I don't even know how to disprove you because I don't even know what you're saying. I'm quoting you, using your words, and you laugh at me for using your words. Does that mean you're actually laughing at yourself? By the way, try looking up "unintentional", lol. Also - really, ask chrizzo before you judge what I think about conspiracy theories, I'm honest! @J!nX^ I don't even know what to do anymore. I guess I'll keep beating the dead cow until this thread dies and everyone forgets, once again, about all the logical arguments made in it. I definitely won't ever be wasting my time making a worthwhile comment here ever again, because it obviously gets you nowhere.

23/03/2009 05:08:00

[b]1)[color=#009933]Only advantage check pointing has is that it skips time wasted[/color].[/b] [b]2)[color=#6600cc]This has nothing to do with AMXX[/color].[/b] [b]3)As faker said.. why don't we see people complaining about /start[/b] [b]4) It's the mappers fault for making those timers.[/b] [b]5)As long as the default settings are ON, during the run and no other settings are changed and/or plugins are activated it would be fine by me.[/b]

23/03/2009 06:25:00

ok, ppl with good fps will be able to rec maps.

23/03/2009 07:38:00

[link=http://cypress-climbing.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?458]http://cypress-climbing.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?458[/link]

23/03/2009 08:46:00

SRY TO SEE THESE NEW RULES and esp the unpleasantness

23/03/2009 10:14:00

how poor can you be to not buy steam ? OMG .......i can`t belive it , people complaining about "buying" the game =))) .....its so sad that it doesn`t make you sad. you go to another state of mind......like "i`ll take the rabbit and kill it by smashing it to you`r head for 5 hours" .........

23/03/2009 10:29:00

[quote=irc] [09:56] kz-sca|elITe^: the change is already here, deal with it or don't, your decision [/quote] (imo, best text i read about this changement) there will be always ppl which are against, and ppl which support a change. don't matter what it is, don't matter how big a change is, so like elITe^ said, "deal with it or don't, your decision"

23/03/2009 11:17:00

[quote=s1gh]In fact, if you actually tried to find out what the other admins think before you posted the rules, you'd know that thopa was completely against the drop-down from the beginning.[/quote] Once again you show how stubborn, arrogant and WRONG some of your arguments are. Do you think I just wake up like this, go over the community and add some new rules that I think would fit (even though I am inactive btw...)? No... thopa and I discussed weeks about this - and we agreed since minute one that both, the shortcut itself and teleporting up, should be allowed. And all the accussation and side blows in your text just show that you have a personal problem how I "lead" the community... But the problem/point you don't see is: I don't "lead" anything for more than 6 months now, since I went inactive. All I do is helping to pay and keep the servers alive - and help the other admins if I'm asked to do so (just like it happend before this news was done). - And yeah, I did understand your opinion... You think the current system is better than the previous one but still unfair like hell (possible to beat old records by 0.01 seconds if the old record was not synchronized and then the other guy has to beat them by 0.9 seconds to get the record back) - and want to have records based on miliseconds... But I guess you failed to understand mine: Even though I agree with you on that point and think you got a point there (about the new system having a problem and being a bit unfair), I do NOT agree about the milisecond records... kz maps are not the olympics. KZ-timer covers seconds only, so you have to be a whole second faster to get the new record - not 0,5 seconds and not only 0,01 seconds. That's the way it is, nobody cares if you are only a litte faster than the current record holder - you have to make bigger efforts to get the record. This way some records may get impossible to beat at a certain point, I agree, but it's an achivement to be the first one doing an \"unbeatable\" time on a bhop map as well - then you held the record as long as someone manages to do a faster time (and btw: some people already said that the clintmo_bhopriver time was unbeatable when the record still was 24... just an example ;)) Been like that since the very beginning of kz, and nobody complained... The new rules that were made (by thopa) aren't meant to change that.... there were and still are meant to fix the timerbug problem as good as possible. P.S: However, such a poll will be done whenever the demoadmin(s) feel ready for it and the background work is done (timer plugin etc.), so that the thing could really work without too much complications (we have a FEW demos more than your site). P.S²: Still would hate it, takes away a lot of kz's atmosphere and will produce a lot of boring demos which just look like the previous ones.

23/03/2009 11:32:00

Ah, btw: [quote=s1gh]You couldn't have chosen a worse comparison. Okay, let's go along with it though. The programmer's goal is to program the clock as fast as possible right? Well, why don't I just start the timer and hook all the way up to the end of the map - it's much faster than actually climbing it, right? Don't you see how bad your examples are? KZ is not about saving yourself time on shortcuts, it's about seeing who can string together the best run, with the best bhops, and the best shortcuts. Not who can gocheck fastest up to the top with amxx.[/quote] I guess I have to give you back the "You couldn't have chosen a worse comparison." you said to Gargoyle.... Choosing a better program to code the lock is just preparative work, just as finding a way to get to the startposition faster (by hook or tp) - BEFORE YOU actually start the run. Why do you mix that up with cheating during the run (hooking up AFTER pressing the start button or stealing code in the clock example)... That's not relevant at all.

23/03/2009 12:12:00

Faker@"P.S²: Still would hate it, takes away a lot of kz's atmosphere and will produce a lot of boring demos which just look like the previous ones." Oh yeh, I get you; Watching kz_xj_mountez done in 01:18 ( 01:18 brian ) by heL was just so incredibly boring to watch, I could barely keep my eyes open either. Who cares if you think that heL's new goldbhop demo is boring? We are alot people who really really enjoys watching jumpes pushing the limits even more with milliseconds - not to mention the fact that demos have been beaten several times in the past with milliseconds - and "nobody complained".. Btw, I want to point out that I'm not a "faker hater" and I do appreciate that you are one of the only admins actively participating in this discussion - but do you admit that the demos XJ have in the demos section are not nessecarely the fastests demos? This is not KZ ano 2005, clintmo_bhopwarehouse cannot easily get beaten by 2 seconds anymore - so this is of course a nessecary change, since the goal of the Record Demos section should be to have the fastests existing demos. This is just a way to push the limits even more and provide community with even more shocking demos. Now if you're not into small maps that are perfected to the limits, then just don't bother watch it...

23/03/2009 12:42:00

(1)"Choosing a better program to code the lock is just preparative work, just as finding a way to get to the startposition faster (by hook or tp) - BEFORE YOU actually start the run. Why do you mix that up with cheating during the run (hooking up AFTER pressing the start button or stealing code in the clock example)... That's not relevant at all." I think that just seals the deal. "1)Only advantage check pointing has is that it skips time wasted. 2)This has nothing to do with AMXX." Indeed, we are talking about saving time here not about "cheating". And I like to refer to (1) how it is not important why should the time be saved. And yes again, this has nothing to do with AMXX. s1gh... "you laugh at me for using your words. Does that mean you're actually laughing at yourself?" No it shows how bad you can show someones mistakes when you simply copy their whole text? Use your own words not copy the whole sheat. Oh, and again. If I write something please, comment on the message I'm trying to send and not something totally off the point.

23/03/2009 12:43:00

Well, I see the point and I understand your way of thinking, but I think I got a legit point with good arguments as well: [i]kz maps are not the olympics. KZ-timer covers seconds only, so you have to be a whole second faster to get the new record - not 0,5 seconds and not only 0,01 seconds. That's the way it is, nobody cares if you are only a litte faster than the current record holder - you have to make bigger efforts to get the record. This way some records may get impossible to beat at a certain point, I agree, but it's an achivement to be the first one doing an "unbeatable" time on a bhop map as well - then you held the record as long as someone manages to do a faster time (and btw: some people already said that the clintmo_bhopriver time was unbeatable when the record still was 24... just an example ) Been like that since the very beginning of kz, and nobody complained... [/i] Just think about the recorders... Some of them spent huge amounts of time to record an "unbeatable" record (cg_coldbhop)... such a rule change would really offend them and prolly even make them start thinking to quit kz (no exaggeration, I was really told that... and if I was still recording, I probably felt the same about it). The timer thing isn't really a question where you can determine what's right or wrong... In the other way round it would be really stupid to say that the old system is the better one just because the kreedz timer doesn't have miliseconds... Who knows if Kreedz would have added such a timer if that would've been possible at that time... Really nobody knows... So it's a really a subjective question, a question of taste and style. And it's a really though question for the history of kz, therefore I don't think it should be rushed. This change of the rules started to change things and eleminate the unfair timerbugged demos, maybe more progress to come... based on the feedback of the _whole_ community, especially the recorders.

23/03/2009 13:26:00

I agree, not only demo record holders would get upset some "fans" too. I know I would if T3d's coldbhop got beaten by lousy 0.1s... And many others, but I think 25s Is a must, and you truly do deserve it then.

23/03/2009 13:46:00

If you beat the World Record then you deserve the World Record - regardless of how upset the previous record holder might be. That's fair for everyone - no one is holding the previous record holder back from getting the record back. Now the situation we have now is different, let's take clintmo_bhopwarehouse for example.. StormZz did a timerbug WR with like 23.01 timerbug or something, now akkord improved this World Record (can't remember how much, I'm at work)... But let's pretend he did 22.99 and improved the WR with 0.02, this would have gotten him WR according to these new rules. Yet, at the same time - the rules are holding StormZz back from getting it back, unless he improves the record with 0.9 seconds. See, HERE you can talk about unfairness towards the record holders.

23/03/2009 14:06:00

cheche that is true but there is no solution that makes everyone happy and agree with it. Humans nature prevents that. Like Faker has mentioned many times about the minority. This actually changes pretty much nothing compared to the rules made in the beginning, people who still hate the rules are the minority, in this case their vote will not change anything.

23/03/2009 14:19:00

The solution I say is to go all on the FPS-Death timer. it is the most accurate we have, so I don't se the point in not using it. The KZ timer is still good for people that aren't so serious about KZ. But for the WR breakers the most accurate timer should be used.

23/03/2009 14:25:00

cheche: We can't change everything and I'm not admin. Imo fastest time should win. But alot of people think that it isn't necessary with xx:xx:xxxxxxx. RemaKe: Your opinion is stupid, mine is not. Simple.

23/03/2009 14:33:00

About the hook/cp thingy... I don't get it how you don't get it already. There's no right solution nor a wrong one. It's a matter of taste... Which do you prefer, an apple or a banana? 2 decimals ftw. It's not too late to change that. faker mentioned that there are recorders who have taken LOTS of time to record unbeatable demos such as cg_coldbhop, but isn't that VERY lame? It's next to impossible (not impossible though) to beat it. The 1 second barrier sucks, there should just be a 0,01 second barrier :E If people don't want 2 decimals, why not just count the time in hours? All records would be 0 hours which equals the current 00:00. That's an extreme comparison, but works. Sorry for bad text, I'm tired..

23/03/2009 15:19:00

i have to agree with cheche and flibo. there should be a timer with miliseconds! IT'S TIME FOR CHANGE

23/03/2009 16:06:00

xj waits 1 year or longer to present a half thought-out solution, instead of solving the problem when it occurs. these new rules, even if they are better than the old ones, will cause problems in the future. +1 to s1gh & Co.

23/03/2009 16:06:00

nilsen1, it's sad to see that you can't read. Think whatever about my opinion, i really don't care. But still calling people idiots cause their opinions are different from yours is immature, turn your ego off and learn to accept people's opinoins, bye.

23/03/2009 16:22:00

Well I think all in all I have to agree with faker here. It's too early to make a rule with miliseconds. Nowdays we got every week around 20 new world-records. There is just no need for that rule at the moment if you ask me. There are around 600 maps, I don't care if 10 of them are unbeatable...

23/03/2009 16:32:00

Solution? mapname_author_mmss.xx.dem mm = minutes ss = seconds xx = miliseconds

23/03/2009 16:41:00

The problem with timer with millisecond is you can't look the timer at the end of the map, and immediately know if you have the wr or not.... This is sad :(

23/03/2009 17:56:00

RemaKe maybe I misunderstood you. My ONLY opinion is: 1:33:93>1:33:92 Fastest wins.

23/03/2009 18:00:00

But I also agree with chrizZo, atm there's no need for milisecs. BUT I think everyone whos recording should use a timer that's more correct and show up like the publictimer do when you hit the stop button.

23/03/2009 20:16:00

You guys have way too much time on your hands. It's a game. If you had to climb up to use the sc on xtremeblock, and if I was still playing, I would totally abuse it, since it isn't part of my run and it isn't affecting it in any way I would just mess around. I'm pretty sure people would still be going for the scs even with this rule, but what's the point of adding a sloppy fucked up run to get there? Sure it might be more fair, but when it comes to it, there's no real point in doing it at all. What's up with all the hate directed towards faker? Leave your personal grudges out of shit like this. I don't know why I decided to write a post and I don't really care if some of you think I don't have any good points. KZ could just die, as far as I'm concerned. This became too much of a wall already :/

23/03/2009 20:26:00

One more thing: I really dislike all the old school "this is the right way to play people" that just can't face the changes. Seems like these people exist in every community. Things are changing, the legends quit and the kids replace them. Why do you feel you have the right to decide how something as petty as a game is supposed to be played and enjoyed?

23/03/2009 20:53:00

+1 to the last post of wRath` i am following the scene so long now and the rules changed many things and everytime it helped the community. so these rules won't hurt it either.

23/03/2009 21:38:00

Just wanted to say I'm done with this. I sincerely hope on your part that you don't consider this winning the argument, faker. For a community that pulls the "democracy" card out of its ass every 10 minutes, I think everyone with a goat-sized brain realizes it's been proven otherwise many times before. If you want my honest opinion about this community, I think it's an indignant assembly of people who are either too stupid to care or too smart to care. The ones who are too stupid to care are those who posted "gj" in response to this announcement, and the ones who are too smart to care are the ones who will never try to contribute in any major issue ever again. I'm not going to pull a bibo and say that I'll quit XJ - because I won't - and I do still respect the fact that its been run for a relatively long amount of time by the same people. However, the insensitive way in which members are ignored is just mind-boggling. I'm not just talking about myself - all I've done is contribute my opinion and time to help XJ solve controversial issues (something that obviously won't happen at this rate). I'm also referring to other people who are consistently ignored despite their great ideas, and people like TinTin who, in my opinion, for someone who donated so much money and time to this community, never received a proper goodbye. For a long time I wondered how the hell this community can attract so many people who are not up to par with normal societal intellect. Now I realize that it's not that it attracts many idiots - people of all type get to this community. The problem lies in the fact that the ones who are smarter than fifth graders are not rewarded in the same way they would be in 99% of other communities. And no, I don't mean rewarded with ass-kissing or pussy-dipping, I mean rewarded with some kind of respect; rewarded with some attention when they make a logical argument. That's why I hope that you're not happy about ending this argument, faker. The more inconsiderate you are towards your members, as I feel you have been to me, the more intelligent ones you will lose. And yes, this was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. It's not that you won't see me around on here any more, I'll be here congratulating people when they beat amazing records, if they do it in 20 seconds or in a hundredth of a second. However, don't count on me trying to give my insight about any issue that ever arises here again - I've officially enacted my long-awaited policy of indifference to anything that happens around here. Thanks for reading, if you did. Now I just wish I had written this yesterday, so that instead of spending my time trying to help you figure this issue out logically, I would have done my history homework.

23/03/2009 22:22:00

couldn't you have just summarised the last ~3000 words you've written about this newspost with the words "I am an attention seeker"?

23/03/2009 23:39:00

omfg non steam rule reaaaalllyyyy suck!!!

24/03/2009 00:03:00

To be exact, he didnt write about this newspost, he wrote his opinion about XJ. My opinion, more like a statement. XJ hasn't been up this long if the directors and community would be over or under fifthgraders as you, s1gh like to refer. It is somewhat silly that you dont think people at XJ dont get respect, when obviously your respect is running really top notch. You respect TinTin for the fact that he donated alot of money to keep this system running. I dont know for a fact, but I am pretty sure TinTin isn't the only one spending money for XJ. A person not getting "a proper goodbye" doesnt mean he wasn't respected. Maybe people just didn't know what contributes TinTin did for this community. Since you are not an admin of this community, I doubt that you know a squat who has contributed the most for this community. Be naive all you want, but I have nothing more to say to you...

24/03/2009 00:11:00

s1gh rly took his time to write. imo if they wanna start eh milisec rule, then for example @ climtmoo_longjump[x] 0005.8 should already be wr. .8 < 0.9. u dont have to get 0004 then..

24/03/2009 04:17:00

[quote=faker] This way some records may get impossible to beat at a certain point, I agree, but it's an achivement to be the first one doing an "unbeatable" time on a bhop map as well [/quote] tarGet held the record on rpz_downfall[boxes] for over a year before his cheated demo was removed. During the period tarGet held the WR, countless jumpers got 5 seconds on the map. Yet, faker's demo is the one that is the world record today. Great job, faker! You must be proud for being the "first" person to get 5 seconds on that map.

24/03/2009 06:34:00

guys, you should really stop crying. am i wrong if i think that most of you have enough time to waste on such a newspost? im sry if i missed something due to epic walls of texts but why do you flame faker all the time? he already said that _thopa_ is the demo admin who made the decision about the timer system.

24/03/2009 07:35:00

No one is crying SchlumPF - where does that cry-card you stupid people always pull up in an argument come from? Who's crying? "he already said that _thopa_ is the demo admin who made the decision about the timer system." And where the hell did you get that from? I think it would better for you to just stay out of this. "im sry if i missed something" You obviously did.

24/03/2009 11:15:00

s1ght won, juste because he argue with novel : D

24/03/2009 11:42:00

s1gh is right , admit that...

24/03/2009 13:16:00

[quote]"he already said that _thopa_ is the demo admin who made the decision about the timer system." And where the hell did you get that from? I think it would better for you to just stay out of this.[/quote] Well SchlumpF got a point there, I did mention it in my previous posts as well... I really got surprised by that rule, that's why I made the poll. -> So you did obviously miss smth as well. :) - "chekevara" like Che Guevara? :D

24/03/2009 15:01:00

Holy hell how many posts. I have no intention to read them all.. I saw someone talking about democracy and how there is not one in xj. In my opinion that's just bullshit. It's just the way ppl are, some ppl like and some dislike. People who dislikes seem to bring out their opinions louder. And I think there are more people like me who are not going to record for the community(lack of skills or another reasons) so I don't know why they are so bothered about the timerrule.. I don't care how the time is calculated, but I know I can watch ownage demos anyways. excuse my suberb english.

24/03/2009 17:08:00

About steam not affecting cs like nonsteam, it does. Is not just the RAM like supa said(i think it was him) its many more things in the computer. I used to have a cheap pc and play with nonsteam, then I bought steam and used to have 60- fps but it was impossible to play after the friends update. I had to spend $1000 in a new computer to actually have good fps in steam (not just for cs, but for all games) I always play with steam so don't say I'm cheap ^^. It could also not be $1000, but $100 for a video card, but now you can see a difference from $10 to $100. I think all the rules are great, and people just don't read them correctly. I'm just sad that kunqui can't record anymore :(

24/03/2009 18:09:00

this night don't go out to eat pizza and you you can buy two+ steams ;)

24/03/2009 18:55:00

faker dude... Just get rid of this... We already talk alot about this, let people complain or shout as much as they want, that's a new rule, that's life, they have to live with it.

24/03/2009 23:03:00

And you should watch at both sides of the arguments before you judge a discussion s1gh. I'm taking this as an insult that you named my nick here in this dicussion in this context. If you want to make jokes about me go in your steam chat and message your friends. The way you ended two of your posts there is just ridiculous and I hope you know that. I have nothing to do with this discussion here, so please don't set me in here as the clown. Don't know what you said in your arguments, because I really don't care about this discussion, but when I'm seeing how you end them, it's really taking my will to read them. And I hope that nobody will ask me this stupid question like you said there. Hopefully you are seeing that this was immature of you.

25/03/2009 14:27:00

ndR, what is wrong about faker taking part of the discussion? What would you suggest? Should he just ignore everyone?

25/03/2009 16:41:00

lol.. this actually is pretty easy, ofc the fastest time wins is totally correct, however, a 0.01 or even less time difference between demos wouldnt make sense, considdering it depends on keyboards type aswell( too long story about computer science to tell here LOL ) , but yes, like cheche mentioned before about clintmo_bhopwarehouse, that could suck pretty much for record holders. Sill, the correct answer is 0.1 sec difference in small maps ( or all maps ) , because well, you can jump the map exact same way , speed etc the other does, and press finish button at exact same time, still one will have a faster time , the one who will have a little better/different keyboard. This might sound like fake, try some reactions test where you have to use your mouse, having a cooler mouse than some default microsoft mouse will win even by 0.2 sec the default mouse, for same person. Sucky situation tho :E

25/03/2009 16:49:00

There can be no changes @ Steam or Nonsteam, but only @ protocols.. v48 is maximed like steam.. And everyone will be happy..

25/03/2009 19:21:00

Yes now he should cheche. As far as I've seen he has already replied many times, and surely too many. The limit where discussion is no longer usefull has been reached and there is no need anymore for any kind of discussion. Everything has been said, plus that's admins' decisions. Attention I'm not saying XJ must be a dictatorship, I just think complains are acceptable for a moment, but if it's an admins' decision, and that you know and see they won't make any change, it's like shouting in the space, useless. Ah and by the way I didn't mention any of your arguments, I'm not saying you, or admins are wrong because I don't want to take part in all of that here. faker knows my point of view and that's enough for me :)

26/03/2009 17:55:00

Can i use non-steam with 48 protocol patch ?

26/03/2009 18:56:00

Trolis, no.

29/03/2009 15:36:00

good news.

14/07/2010 22:12:00

- -!