Mapsubmission information

By puppetz mapper·
Hello everyone. The XJ mapcheck team decided it was needed to write a newspost to all the mappers out there. As kz is a “map-based” mod, its future relies in the hands of the mappers, and it is important that we get new maps frequently to keep the community alive. XJ’s mapcheck team is in charge of checking submitted maps. In the old days, this job belonged to a single person – Kreedz himself. Back then, kz was a new thing; the standards weren’t very high. Recently, maps being submitted have declined in quality and many of us feel like we are wasting our time checking them. For most of them, it’s easy to tell right away: there is no way they would be accepted!

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25/01/2010 15:08:00

gj, but u may add the sites name and a small description behind all the links (:

25/01/2010 15:10:00

that's why i stopped mapping you only want perfect maps and when i'm working on a project and think it's done then i'll hook it up and it's over with this project but then comes a offer from xj to fix these to change that ... i prefer when you only say denied or accepted ent of story... the bugs and changes should be fixed with your friends before you submit it...

25/01/2010 15:13:00

nice

25/01/2010 15:18:00

i prefer jumps to looks, as others do too. maybe ghat is such a nice looking map, but the jumps aren't that great, and because so much time was spent on the looks, it got killed. yet some pretty plain maps are the most popular, and most improved upon wr's

25/01/2010 15:25:00

good wall of text, but i still think there is practicly nothing "new" anyway. every mapper, that can use his own brain and is just little bit self-critical, [u]must[/u] know in advance, that his map [u]will[/u] or not [u]will[/u] accepted. u are not able to stop uploading of bad/ugly maps, it's just a newbie's disillusion and restlessness. and i must say i agree with decision, that every newbie mapper should understand, that we don't want to play dust-texture, or bugged maps. times of oldschool are long gone. don't go back to them.

25/01/2010 15:29:00

hi puppe ,i love you <3

25/01/2010 15:34:00

good

25/01/2010 15:36:00

I have been waiting this newpost for some time. And now it is here. Let's just hope that this will improve the quality of submitted maps so that more maps get accepted.

25/01/2010 15:40:00

cool story bro

25/01/2010 15:42:00

[blockquote]Why should people play my map, and not kz_xxxxxx? Will the jumpers stay engaged, and not get bored jumping my map?[/blockquote] Mapcheck team shouldn't talk about the quality of jumps since you don't rate maps by that. Remember kz_lostworld? Looks awesome but it has just awful jumps (this was a random example, there are a lot more maps like that). [blockquote]Compare your map to others. You must look at it not only from your own perspective, but also from that of the jumpers, mappers, and mapcheck team.[/blockquote] This sounds like you're not allowed to copy something, but to get your map accepted, you still have to build maps that look like all the others? Or if not, why should you compare your map with others? [blockquote]Now we accept or deny what we actually see, and not what we want to see.[/blockquote] Good. I still can't get how radon's jumprun got kz_ tag. Anyways, good job.

25/01/2010 15:57:00

Good job on the article but... Dear mapcheck team, why do you think jumpers don't really play these "new time" nice looking new maps? YOU think about this. In your search for better looking maps you kinda made the "jumps" to decrease in standard as they are boring since the mappers do what you tell them and concentrate on the looks of the maps. I don't really see the new maps being played on servers... Of course mappers and the standard of the maps should get higher with passing time. But i have read some of your demands in denied maps that don't really go with what the mappers intended. And of course nowadays it is harder and harder to make a good map since a lot of the "common" ideas were used.

25/01/2010 16:02:00

awesome job

25/01/2010 16:06:00

long article and nice decision, it can avoid a lot of unnecessary work for map checking team

25/01/2010 16:10:00

i will say this. having seen some of the maps that have been rejected, some of the people who decide these things, don't belong there.

25/01/2010 16:19:00

lame.

25/01/2010 16:23:00

I like :)

25/01/2010 16:45:00

"its future relais on the mappers" haha NOT

25/01/2010 17:02:00

:E

25/01/2010 17:34:00

Add link to this newspost on "submit maps" page so it doesn't get lost in time :)

25/01/2010 17:44:00

tnx for useful links

25/01/2010 18:07:00

I myself don't care much about the looks of the maps, I'm more into the jumps.

25/01/2010 18:09:00

Remake you cannot expect that every requirement from the list puppe just gave us to come true. If the map fulfills most/enough of the requirements it should be accepted just because there has to be new maps to offer to kz community. Like in the lostworld case, theme: check, looks: check, jumps: "boring". Oh and another thing, lostworld is a speed map, there's not a whole lot of blindjumps and other difficult jumps. To have a speedmap you need easy jumps hence the "awful" jumps. Maybe it's just my lack of imagination that I cannot come up with alot of ways to make a speedmap with new innovative and never before seen jumps. It's pretty much straight forward map.

25/01/2010 18:12:00

high five

25/01/2010 18:21:00

If I can't expect every single requirement from the list to come true, then I also can't expect seeing new maps since if one of the requirements isn't followed, they can't accept a map. And lostworld example was just to show up that mapcheck team doesn't really accept/deny maps by jumps, but by the look.

25/01/2010 18:27:00

good news!

25/01/2010 18:33:00

Gargoyle, I think you mean so called "50 units" jumps (or whatever they were called) first discussed in FoF's map fof_utopia. It is even better example, but is it bad as a map? I do not think so. Texture usage are at the highest level. Some places look stunning. And the map has very long bhop combo lines - it is hard for fast runs and easy for beginners at the same time. There are many GREAT non-official maps out there for everyone to explore. But here we are talking about the requirements for a KZ_ or official custom maps. As more mappers are introduced in the scene, XJ needs higher quality standarts. But why we need that? Why doesn't XJ accept every single map out there as custom? Because

25/01/2010 18:37:00

(Sorry for interruption) [blockquote]And of course nowadays it is harder and harder to make a good map since a lot of the "common" ideas were used. [/blockquote] That's why. What XJ really demands are more original themes + original ideas. How can you create original and unseen jumps if almost every type of jumps are already used? We (mappers) need to find a way to mix better looking enviroment with something that looks like a new jump combo. No, really, there are like 1000+ jumping maps. Is "something new and original" really possible without improving the qualities of maps? (just because more than half of those 1k maps are just shitty looking, sorry about that -_-)

25/01/2010 18:40:00

good luck mappers! and that the community continues :D

25/01/2010 18:58:00

I finished.

25/01/2010 18:59:00

off.

25/01/2010 19:06:00

[blockquote]I have been waiting this newpost for some time. And now it is here. Let's just hope that this will improve the quality of submitted maps so that more maps get accepted.[/blockquote]

25/01/2010 21:06:00

hope this article will make the work of the mapcheck team much more easier in the future :)

25/01/2010 21:27:00

Many takes my maps as examples of bad maps, but in the same time many says they are really good. I think one of the most important thing is: to don't be afraid of trying smth new. Even if jumps weren't the best at fof_utopia, they are still very good for beginners, and for experienced players too (they can feel absolutely different jumping style). fof_32 -> not much about design, but jumps and all these shortcuts - good idea! kz_ghat - complex architecture and stunnning look. Nobody are saved from these lame shortcuts (in fof_32 too :/ ) this map was under testings for like half year. We really thought it's free from scs, but oh - wide world. To mapping beginners: nobody borns with experience. Each new mapper has to go through this 'denied maps' forum section reading some of his map names. I bet after you will get your first official map, you'll see big difference between the current and the one you were trying to submit year ago (or smth) and thought it's not fair because it was okay enough! Too bad goldsource engine is not very friendly for developing ideas, but u can push it to the limits to get beautiful maps. Google some stunning regular cs maps (-: And btw for new mappers it's like a little competitions to get their maps accepted (-: peace <3

25/01/2010 22:18:00

LIIINE PEACE!

25/01/2010 22:39:00

thx, be useful this info

25/01/2010 23:08:00

ok, this is good

25/01/2010 23:40:00

Good guides in this article and comments.

25/01/2010 23:51:00

tl;dr

26/01/2010 00:26:00

Wall of text honestly. =P But once I was in mapcheck team (had my trial time and failed). Anyway, yes... There are many bad maps submitted nowadays with bad architecture/textures/jumps. But still there are some maps what are good enough to be accepted. Only or mapcheck team got lazy last days (fof_ghat was in accepting process for like 3 months? [but ya - jumps aren't that good]), or mappers are getting worse. =P

26/01/2010 15:59:00

Wow, sort the wall of text next time >.<

26/01/2010 17:38:00

Honestly, have you guys ever read anything longer than an usual demo release? That text is very short and it has been sorted well.

26/01/2010 19:36:00

The prophecy of kz ? its not too soon.. (but nice try) i would be fine to help but don't have time. The way is in mind, not in Hammer. GL mappers, think before build

26/01/2010 21:13:00

Too lazy to read it all... :D

26/01/2010 22:43:00

What a pleasure it is so see how many constructive comments there are to this news item, keep it up boys! ...

27/01/2010 04:18:00

I think mapping is lose / lose. Basically peoples expectations are too high. This is evident by the fact that the most popular maps of all time wouldn't be accepted by today's standards... What are people expecting? honestly. A map that has fun jumps - but is not the same as your favorite maps? You don't care about the environment, but hate maps that look like somebody's first project? Such contradictions in people's expectations can only result in complete dissatisfaction. There are limits in hammer/the engine that restrict the creative mind. What people are expecting/imagining cannot be achieved and the sooner that is realised the better. It may be pessimistic, but i believe mapping to be a dead institution - or will become so in the near future - because every time a map is released, it gets slammed for its flaws based on the fact that the persons expectations were far too high. (i admit in the past [ the recent past ] i have been an example of this) Eventually mappers will lose their motivation as there is no way to 'win'. Everybody continues to record on the old popular maps and ignores the newer maps, yet if a map was to come out that resembled the popular ones it would be said that "it shouldnt have been accepted, we want something new" Yet as the facts show - YOU DONT. Lower your expectations and appreciate the work of the mappers and their creativity. If its the 'same old same old' give it a chance because as history shows, they are the most successful. pZ~

27/01/2010 10:21:00

[blockquote]There are limits in hammer/the engine that restrict the creative mind. What people are expecting/imagining cannot be achieved and the sooner that is realised the better.[/blockquote] There are no limits in hammer/goldsrc, its just the limitation of the creativemind. Without good creativeness or a good fantasy control, there is no success. [blockquote]Lower your expectations and appreciate the work of the mappers and their creativity. If its the 'same old same old' give it a chance because as history shows, they are the most successful. [/blockquote] If you had seen the latest submission entrys you wouldnt even comment this.

27/01/2010 10:24:00

Hai!

27/01/2010 12:18:00

+1 dEMolite

27/01/2010 14:19:00

+1 dEMolite I'm amazed by the uncreativity of KZ mappers. Yes, I'm blaming mappers. Pretty much all the mappers do is copy copy copy from the older maps. I very rarely see anything new and enjoyable. I don't see how fun jumps and creativity are contradicting each other like Hazard said.

27/01/2010 17:03:00

I've never played a map because it looks nice and never will, why? Because they seem to focus more on the arhitecture than the actual jumps, the jumps sucks. Just take a look at the facts, the most rebeaten maps are old kz maps which doesnt look any good at all tbh...And after that I'd say the most popular maps to record are the custom maps, they didnt get a kz_ tag because of the environment(?) Pretty much feel like that but I'm not sure tho, correct me if im wrong :) New good looking/peace of art maps gets beaten like 1 time mostly and if it gets rebeaten it's the same record holder that improves his record. Who the fuck cares if a certain floor/grass doesnt fit with the "time of the year" in the map? That's my thoughts and I've always said it: Fun > Looks

27/01/2010 17:51:00

exactly zhady ;)

27/01/2010 17:54:00

exactly zhady ;) people play the maps for the fun of it not because they want to see the enviroment and just stare at it. The fun is in the jumps. Sure, the enviroment is a nice touch and gives you a nicer feeling but u play a map to "jump it".

27/01/2010 18:56:00

Just as a thought, try to think from other point of views too. If you're new to the KZ world and the first map you ever see is tri_complex, would you be very eager to play more kreedz maps? Probably not.

27/01/2010 18:57:00

yes zhady i`m agree with you i think KreedZ created this mode with the ideq to jump on those maps and to build nice and funny jumps not to make fucking cool atchitecture yes the architecture should be nic too but sometimes i think the XJ map check team wants to make the maps like CS:S maps if they focus more on the jumps the maps will be much better and fun imo

27/01/2010 19:12:00

Yes Flibo, if the map was fun to play... I played gigablock first time ever, couldnt see shit cause of the darkness... Looks like a single texture all the way and I'm still here, ain't I? On the other hand I'd probably never come back if I played junglezone2 with like the most boring jumps ever and a nice, good looking jungle theme.

27/01/2010 20:07:00

And another thing Flibo, what you're really saying is that you wanna see kz growing on the cost of making the maps less funnier and focus more on the looks? :S That wont even make kz bigger, if u wanna see kz grow, create big tournaments (INET+LAN), work with other big regular cs communitys and get alot of publicity or publicity at all. Would the pro's attend the LAN's? Probably not. Why? Too much costs, flights etc (ofc it depends where the LAN is held.) Making better maps will not make kz grow shit, just look at the "normal" cs scene, there's like almost the same maps as like 7-8 years ago. What kz needs is represantation outside of this community(+national communitys). Money needs to get involved in the scene if you want it to get proffesional too. If there's noone out there who are willing to sacrifice something for the growth, you won't gain much either, simple as that. So stop destroying our maps please and if u wanna make money, get a job. / zhady a<3

27/01/2010 20:20:00

I never told anyone to focus less on the jumps. Just to focus more on the looks. Good looks don't magically make the jumps bad. I don't think comparing kreedz to the normal CS scene is fair. They have a goal, that's competitive CS. Kreedz has nothing like that. Kreedz is more map dependent too. There are no easy or hard maps in normal CS.

27/01/2010 21:11:00

I know that. All people have different opinions but I bet the majority of this community prefers to play the custom maps, atleast it looks like it from the comments in the demo-releases. ...And of what I've seen its like 80% mappers that make good looking maps who are whining about the looks (like omg the lightning is too bright in that cave, it looks so unrealistic.) So let's get back to reality, for a game to grow we need people who are ready to compete to be the best and people who are willing to sacrifice money and ALOT of time. I don't think shooting cs popped up from out of nowhere with LAN-events with price money as high as $100k. As I said, kz needs to get more competitive. What do you think we should compare it too? Taking a walk? Oh, wait, even that's more competitive than kz, no wonder kz is growing so fast. About the easy or hard maps in normal cs, ofc they aren't easy/hard but put in the best 5 players right now and go beat them in a match and let's see how easy it was to play for example SK on inferno. Kz is where the normal cs scene were in the beginning, only public playing...And the record list is a bonus, but cmon how competitive is it? An example I go beat valleycliff in 01:42 with 10 hours of geeking. 2 weeks later some other dude comes up with a time of 01:41 with 10 days of geeking. That's not competitive at all, try some other ideas because this doesnt work at all. Make tournaments, matches, ladders etc where 2 people are playing on the same server with the exactly same server settings. This recording stuff depends much on who has the most time to geek. People won't show up at the exact times etc as always, but that's how it is. Create competitive maps with 2 routes where a single mistake will cost you 10-20 seconds. That's just an example, think outside the box and stop the ancient thinking. If you arent ready to change the whole system of how this works, dont change anything, keep it the way it is and stop being serious about the mapping section and half serious about other stuff in this community. An example are the cups in irc? People are waiting days to play cups, 1 day there is like 50 cups the next two weeks it's a cup-ratio of 2 cups/day. Feels like everything is half serious. Is there a bigger plan in these changes that are made, or are you trying to keep the stuff you like more strict and the stuff you don't care about half serious/ignore. Thx again.

27/01/2010 21:33:00

And there are too many maps per active user too, i mean beating the world record on kz_man_forest is like beating a guinnes record: eating most eggs in 52 minutes... It's a record but noone will ever try to take it :)

28/01/2010 03:00:00

good zhady

28/01/2010 06:39:00

flibo the contradiction is this; people are saying they dont care about looks, but when bkm_problock came out all hell broke lose about how bad it looked. They play the maps with fun jumps constantly, yet if a map came out that resembled the maps they play so often, they would bitch. Instead of sitting there criticising EVERY possible way a mapper could make a map and blaming them for making kz 'less fun', how about you step up and make a map with totally new fun jumps - THEN you can get on your high horse.

28/01/2010 10:25:00

We don't care about the looks, just bring more fun.

28/01/2010 14:18:00

Wow zhady just put all my thoughts in words. I've said it before as well. This recording crap is just getting so boring! Sure there are new players that gladly tests their skills and brings new talent to the scene but what about everyone else? Most players who get a few WRs just stop playing instantly and im sure you have noticed that the inactivity rate is considerably larger compared to normal cs. Playing the same map 100 times over just doesn't compare to the intensity that real time competition gives and as it is, there's just no such thing. Cups are great, but as zhady said it's just too inconsistant. It's a hard time being a cupadmin, i've tried it myself and it is exhausting. Appointing new cup admins doesn't solve anything in the long run. What we need to make kz grow and to keep it fun (which is basically what this discussion is about, it's not just off topic ranting :D) is tournaments, ladders etc. with prizes. It'll gain more players and it will be much more fun in the long run. Let's face it, KZ is pretty dead.

28/01/2010 14:20:00

I should probably have structured that a bit better but oh well :D

28/01/2010 14:20:00

Hazard, what's your point? That's not the "contradiction" I was talking about. You said that it's a contradiction for a map to have fun jumps but still differ from your favorite maps. That's just what requires creativity. You really want to put words in my mouth, eh? I only said that mappers lack creativity. That's not all there is to mapping. I never said they make kz less fun. Why would they? We still have the old, good, and most importantly original maps. I didn't say that new maps must have totally new jumps. The problem is that most of the time they have little or no new jumps at all. Why should I make a map with new and fun jumps anyway? Just because I criticise something doesn't mean I can do it better. Or am I not allowed to have an opinion and express it?

28/01/2010 14:49:00

so over stupid xj fights.... The general consensus of the posts blame mappers for kz staying in a stagnant state. Truth is - its a boring, monotonous game. No matter how many new maps come out with different styles of jumps, people that have been playing for a while will get bored. How long will the fun of a new map last for 1 person? a few hours, a few days? Some people are catching on - saying kz needs something fresh, like competition/prizes. 4 maps every 6 months with a few creative jumps isnt going to make the game expand, nor will it keep people playing for any longer. Lets face it, everybody is expecting a mapper to totally reinvent the game. Think of how hard it would be for a mapper to create a totally new map, without repeating those new creative ideas too much throughout the map to keep people interested. Its outrageous what everybody is expecting of them. So instead of saying the mappers are lacking creativity in the sense that they're not bringing anything new to the game - how about you try thinking outside the box for some fresh ideas to help kz expand. It's easy to criticise from afar.

28/01/2010 14:58:00

[blockquote]Truth is - its a boring, monotonous game. No matter how many new maps come out with different styles of jumps, people that have been playing for a while will get bored. How long will the fun of a new map last for 1 person? a few hours, a few days?[/blockquote] Thats the narration of the mapper. Every mapper has his unique style and ideas. Even of a bad game a good mapper can make it better. There are planty technics in the goldsource engine which can create new jumptypes, so its not just monotonous, its just the mapper who needs to make some better out of an existing game. KZ is not so fast as Defrag because we dont have any weapons but who cares.

23/06/2015 19:47:00

doubleduck part is must be fixed the ladder is don't work