Demo Talk #1

By Vee mapper VIP·
Hello, jumpers!

Today, we would like to present you an issue that has maybe gone unnoticed by many of you. As in Xtreme-Jumps we aim for transparency with our community, we are here to talk about "mistakes" that have been made over the years regarding two maps.
I have named this news post Demo Talk, since it is the title we'll use when we need to talk about demos and their various aspects in the future.

Comments

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pLaguE^
21/12/2010 20:51:00

Adantoud is from Ukraine [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] Already fixed, thanks anyway!

Berkut Tournament #2
21/12/2010 20:51:00

I am :D

kyser
21/12/2010 20:56:00

its ok what is mentioned there. gj

Kanar
21/12/2010 21:06:00

So , what now ? [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] It is about making this situation public and clear it all up.

zhady Tournament #2
21/12/2010 21:17:00

gj !

beuhnoix
21/12/2010 21:33:00

ok, gj.

beg1ner 1337¼
21/12/2010 21:38:00

We would like to REMIND(?!) you [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] Sorry, I don't get your point...

nobody^
21/12/2010 21:44:00

I accept the rules. :)

kunqui
21/12/2010 21:48:00

I've doubts about this kind of situation. maybe I'm wrong or maybe not.. correct me please here. I want to tell you some situations that I've found on these years that I've been playing kreedz.. I'm going to name the most knowed bugs on maps: First one is [b]clintmo_pentablock.[/b] I had world record there and I always thought that It's possible to move those barrels and then restart the round and play like nothing happens.. Why I think it? because I saw demos on kz_cg_lost_castle and kz_rambo_xen (That's for sure another situation to discuss) and players made wrs without pressing some button or something. They only made a simple restartround for bug those maps.. I know that some maps don't deserve be on the Record demos list and some maps should be fixed for make some maps playeables. kz_rambo_xen: Its a teleport that get actived if you restartround.. Nothing more to add. It's another point to discuss about mappers and how this kind of bug can be fixed for enjoy this amazing long map with small blocks and great theme. risk_inertia Not all players know it and I'm gonna reveal the secret of this map. First of all you've to changelevel everytime you fail, why you should do that? Simple, because there's only 1 time while you can join on those things that spin and those hammers get reset..You've to calculate the exact time to press the button and go on. I've alot more and I'll write it here later.. [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] Looking forward to it, thanks.

Soulja-
21/12/2010 22:02:00

Good job. And congratulations Adantoud. ;)

PepoMerca
21/12/2010 22:02:00

no ban, good :D

FLP
21/12/2010 22:09:00

I noticed that thing in Adans demo before seeing this news,anyway gj Vee for accepting his demo.

Berkut Tournament #2
21/12/2010 22:09:00

The same thing like in risk_inertia with kz_mages_courtyard, I had to restart server every time I failed in order to get moving blocks in time to pass them in the quickest way possible Scheme: restart server > wait till 05:00 - 04:47 according to the timer below > push button and do my perfect run > get moving blocks > pass them as quick as it is possible I do restart server because moving blocks dont reset.. [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] Indeed, but that's just a matter of timing. I have also deleted your post formerly located below, as some admin already fixed your typo.

dEMolite mapper
21/12/2010 22:11:00

its funny to read that it is a map design issue instead of an engine issue... the mapper / level designer can't do anything against this engine bugs. [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] They are far from bugs. The engine is made not to restart movable objects, since in regular gameplay they don't matter, whereas in Kreedz they do. Secondly, there's nothing we can do about the engine, but there is something we can do about the maps, that is, work together with the engine, knowing and accepting its limitations.

cahz0r Tournament #3
21/12/2010 22:35:00

So if someone improves risk_forgeblock, doing the map the same way Adantoud did(the door thing) you`ll not accept the demo? That`s not [b]fair[/b] in my opinion. Either you put the demo that followed the rules(older ones, dunno if it was one) in 'Record demos' page or simply delete the demo. Imagine if you want to make a record on that map, you will have to be @6 seconds faster just because you have to wait 5 seconds for the door to open again,it`s not that easy. And that`s only for 1 second improvement. Think about that. [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] We agree, and that's precisely why we have apologized for it. Your estimative is a bit too high I suppose, it takes a little longer than 3 seconds to open the door. Counting on the fact that the demo has some fails and some missing bhops/skips, we can only hope for the best.

xiller
21/12/2010 22:57:00

(fair) rules have to be set one day. So gj ! And happy holidays to you too !

akM
21/12/2010 23:04:00

aight gj bic boi

kREWAN
21/12/2010 23:11:00

It would be easier to not allow this kind of demos. Then it would not bring alot of discusses and flames, it would be the end of that and everyone is happy. Note: I just want you to know that I have never played the maps that have been mentioned but my statement is from what I understood from the newspost. [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] We have considered that option, but in maps like [b]kz_cg_lost_castle[/b] where the "shortcut" cuts a lot of time from the map, there is no alternative. In [b]risk_forgeblock[/b]'s case, it is possible since it only takes 3 or 4 seconds to open the door. I would suggest you try both maps, the download links are in the news post so everyone can check this issues on their own.

maxiqueen
21/12/2010 23:40:00

"We apologize sincerely for the sure inconvenience this will cause to the next recorders and, furthermore, we would like to present the single exception to that rule." I am not really sure how to understand that.. is it exception for the map, or exception for adantouds demo? if for demo, then i must agree with cahzor, and it is stupid decision [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] Writing context. When someone says "we would like to present", it means the subject that follows, which, in this case, is [b]kz_cg_lost_castle[/b].

Soulja-
21/12/2010 23:41:00

I kind of agree with cAhz0r. If it's going to be like it is now, the map is like unbeatable. kREWAN: Not allowing the map, would also bring alot of discusses and flames I think. But of course it's also an option.

PoshitO
21/12/2010 23:54:00

what about kz_spain same situation with the door fo_h0pbl0ck you should break at least one piece of wood in order to get to the start button, it could be the lower one and i think zhady didnt touched it but still... [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] In [b]kz_spain[/b], one could easily throw his USP and open the door, so it is not really a problem, at least for now.

Hardrave ;>
22/12/2010 00:18:00

good ide! keep doing<3

nucLeaR
22/12/2010 02:02:00

This has nothing to do with the threads but besides the releases in every other news posts the admins should answer the way you do to the comments :) Also, nice information written over me, didn't know about the trick in inertia :) [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] Thank you, it is nice to know you appreciate it.

iLLuSioNeD
22/12/2010 03:18:00

very good job vee, it's rare nowadays to see admins reply to comments the way you do btw, wouldn't refusing records using that bug make Adantoud's record unbeatable? if that's true than it's sad news to the company deleting that map from climbers' minds as there are no maps logically unbeatable [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] Thank you for the compliment. And answering your question, no, the map is still beatable by several seconds, even with the correct way of beating it.

Pieshels mapper
22/12/2010 08:37:00

Your article and [blockquote]Secondly, there's nothing we can do about the engine, but there is something we can do about the maps, that is, work together with the engine, knowing and accepting its limitations.[/blockquote] suggests that there is something that we (mappers) can do about already released maps. Well, that is, unfortunately, not true. 1) We do not have the permission to edit already released maps without the mappers agreement. 2) We do not have the .rmf file, which is required in order to change something in the map, the decompilation won't work on KZ maps as they are too complicated to decompile. 3) Even if we have both permission and mapper's .rmf file, I don't think that the whole community (jumpers not only on XJ) will accept sudden file/map changes for an oldschool map. They will require to delete/overwrite the previous file and I don't think that many jumpers will do this. And people will be confused because of two versions of the map, it will need pure luck to know if a particular server has the old or the new version. The mapsubmittion rules can be changed though - do not create/approve maps that have timing events or situations like in risk_forgeblock. About the Adantoud's demo - why couldn't that map be a exception? There are not many maps out there with these kind of issues/bugs/problems. And I doubt that a non-professional recorder would not know about those exceptional maps as they obviously grind them for hours and watch WR demos on those maps (I guess?). Or another rule would be that doors/levers/whatever can be activated before the startbutton if they are in player's way from the spawnpoint to startbutton. Also, most of the players nowadays use the XJ plugin pack that includes /start option. I do not know if this can be added to rules, but hey - no more before-startbutton triggers, right? Except for those engine bugged ones (like in kz_cg_lost_castle), those kind of demos could be split (?) into two - [+enginebug] and [-enginebug]. Although I do not know what if there are more than one engine bug in a map. That would get a little confusing. [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] Sorry, I don't think you got my point. I mean that we can do something about upcoming maps, not the maps already made, as, like you mentioned, that would ruin a lot of the map's history and we hardly even have the right means to do it. About the map, this isn't an exception because the timer takes about three or four seconds from the map, and, since the current world record has some fails, the map would be "easily" beatable without the door issue. We can't say the same about [b]kz_cg_lost_castle[/b].

beg1ner 1337¼
22/12/2010 09:15:00

We would like to remember you that modifying the map before starting your run, in any way that gives you advantage over the unmodified map is illegal by our rules. You can't say we would like to remember you that ... that's what i meant [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] Oh, right, thanks for correcting me. The actual text was modified before I posted, missed that one.

beg1ner 1337¼
22/12/2010 09:16:00

i look like a total idiot sry my bad ... you actually can i checked it.. [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] Your way is definitely better. Thanks again.

Lu0nto
22/12/2010 10:06:00

Gj man!!!

Eolight
22/12/2010 10:26:00

MAN!

JocA Banned
22/12/2010 10:33:00

In [b]kz_spain[/b] is almost same situation (like [b]PoshitO[/b] said), and u ([b]Vee[/b]) said 'In [b]kz_spain[/b], one could easily throw his [b]USP[/b] and open the door, so it is not really a problem, at least for now.' I think that's problem now, couse [b]Chasquido[/b]'s method is faster for ~0.05 sec . [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] I meant using [b]Chasquido[/b]'s strategy will not be punishable since it is easier to just open the door than geek USP throwing.

xPaw mapper
22/12/2010 13:04:00

[quote]The engine is made not to restart movable objects, since in regular gameplay they don't matter, whereas in Kreedz they do.[/quote] That's true that they just don't get resetted, because valve forget to add functions to each of entity... You can see couple of my plugins on alliedmods, that reset entities on round start. I have mailed valve some time ago about resetting entites, and got no answer because they probably just don' care. But who knows, maybe some time they`ll do it :) By the way, is it allowed to use plugins that reset entities to it's start position? for example these plugins: http://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=868706 http://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=964597 [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] I have e-mailed them about several issues, but just got the same treatment as you did. I would recommend not using anything except those functions provided by [b]XJ[/b]'s official AMXX pack, since any decisions that we make are based on the plugins we provide, therefore making some plugins undesirable to have in your LAN.

kielorz
22/12/2010 14:00:00

@xPaw: try this (took from ham_const.inc): [code] /** * Description: This is called on a map reset for most map based entities. * Forward params: function(this); * Return type: None. * Execute params: ExecuteHam(Ham_CS_Restart, this); */[/code] tried this some time ago, worked on pretty much(as far as i remember only kz-timer didn't reset) [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] As previously said, for history reasons, we can't force people to use those. We can, however, look for a more suitable design in future maps.

xPaw mapper
22/12/2010 16:00:00

@ I RUSSIA! It won't work on entities where is no function that resets it on round start (so it wont work on entities that don't reset their selves) AFAIK

dEMolite mapper
22/12/2010 17:12:00

[blockquote]Edit by Vee: They are far from bugs. The engine is made not to restart movable objects, since in regular gameplay they don't matter, whereas in Kreedz they do. Secondly, there's nothing we can do about the engine, but there is something we can do about the maps, that is, work together with the engine, knowing and accepting its limitations. [/blockquote] Thats because goldsrc is a singleplayer engine not a multiplayer engine and for the mppart its an engine issue and still not a map issue. Where ever if xj wants to limit the designers creativity further with it go on, but those entitys are for kreedz designers the newest way to create improved gameplay for bored old gameplay where it gots to a point where is no further improvements. But speaking further that its the mappers fault or the map issue is the wrong point because its clearly an engine issue. As i said earlier go on limit the creativity of the kreedz designer more. (Its just written as an game designer) [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] I fail to see how asking to press start before playing the map is limiting anyone's creativity. I agree that the engine could avoid this bug, I never said otherwise. What I said was we have no possibility of modifying the engine, as Kreedz is supposed to be played with default settings in a default Counter-Strike application. Whatever maps come in the future, the text reminds them that they can no longer press buttons in order to gain advantage, which would make your argument actually pointless, I guess. I am saying that, in the future, people need to play the whole map, including the skipped parts by pressing buttons, and you are saying I'm limiting their creativity. I don't get it, really.

jack frog
22/12/2010 21:41:00

Adantoud is a gangster! OT: You're saying it's illegal to abuse a design issue in a map but you have no problem against starting/stopping the timer through the wall so you can beat a map in 00:00.42 time. This seems a bit of double standards to me. When I created a thread about "questionable WRs" (that went in a similar direction) the admins were like "the biggest fascinaiton […] to beat the maps as fast as possible" or findig a shorter way is "what distinguishes the pr0 from the average crowd". Well, wasn't it a "pr0" who found that design issue in the first place and isn't it fascinating to see the map getting beaten faster by abusing this design issue? [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] An interesting point, and let me put it the following way: when you press the timer against the wall, the design issue does not compromise the rules, that is, you still did not modify the map in any way before you pressed start. On this particular case, the design issue makes you alter the integrity of the map, which is precisely what's illegal. I would further like to point out that the problem here is simply altering the map, not at all finding better ways to beat it.

dEMolite mapper
22/12/2010 22:18:00

ah okay sry Vee i failed to i miss understood you. but now i understood. [b]Edit by Vee:[/b] It's alright, glad we could solve it!