Discussion: +use spam binds, scripts and macros

By FAME·
Hey there,

We have to announce a possibility of a total restriction of +use spam based binds and scripts, including bind on scroll. We came to this decision after we faced some problems in checking demos with such scripts usage – it makes almost impossible to get run time of a demo. With our current tools it is possible to check run time only for the maps which were made in 2010 or earlier and totally impossible for the "new" ones. Currently we do not have an alternative solution for this problem and if we will not find any in near time, the new rule will be introduced. A new updated tool would allow us to check demos with +use spam, but unfortunately we do not have any available person at this time who could make it for us.

We understand that the introduction of this new rule will be unfair towards maps which would become unbeatable without +use spam, so we also have to deal somehow with it. Here are a few ways how to do that: the first way is allow it for some maps like kz_man_bhopocean and forbid for any other and the second way would be to replace "unbeatable" demos with old ones, recorded without scripts.

So, share you thoughts and suggestions in comments and we will try to find the best solution for this situation.

Best regards,
XJ Staff

Comments

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29/04/2015 17:37:00

LoL ?( ? )?

29/04/2015 17:38:00

That's cool. No more +use milliseconds freaks.

29/04/2015 17:49:00

whut is this?

29/04/2015 17:59:00

Wtf ? That means that we arent allowed to use scroll bind for jump/duck in future or what ?

29/04/2015 18:14:00

Yes, space bar gaming is what classifies for top tiers, after all that's how LEWLY reached top1.

29/04/2015 18:18:00

lmao

29/04/2015 18:50:00

I think that you should be able to scroll +use but then you have you give up either duck or the jump on the scroll imo

29/04/2015 19:30:00

+use with scroll is also spam, so it will be restricted too

29/04/2015 18:59:00

meh

29/04/2015 19:01:00

skizo rite nao http://www.veronicaanghileri.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/bebe-cacheton-enojado.jpg

29/04/2015 19:08:00

this is kinda sad

29/04/2015 19:09:00

Finally

29/04/2015 19:14:00

WHHHAAATT?? Jumping without scroll ?? That makes no sense, I tried to play with spce but...its so lame with space....Wait, what is really the main reason of doing that?

30/04/2015 16:19:00

do you even read xD it's impossible to bhop with space bar not to mention CJ

01/05/2015 11:29:00

I know bro ... I realised how stupid I am now, I understanded everything wrong :)

29/04/2015 19:15:00

I'm not sure if i understood this part correctly, but if we are not able to use scroll for +jump/+duck then you can really say bye bye to KZ. I hope i misunderstood what i read. The only fair solution is to remove all demos that use this +use bind and let the ppl record them again and maybe allow +use for the unbeatable maps that requires it. If you ask me, i'd remove +use entirely if this rule will be implemented. I understand that there are other apects which i do not know about, regarding the tools you guys use, but as of now, that's my opinion.

29/04/2015 19:19:00

For sure you can use scroll for +jump and +duck, you won't be allowed to use it only for +use.

30/04/2015 12:00:00

aspects* =-)

29/04/2015 19:17:00

LEWLY played with space?? Seriously?

30/04/2015 11:58:00

He was using sarcasm :P

30/04/2015 15:57:00

Oh..I feel dumb now ... xD

29/04/2015 19:34:00

gj for these news, about deleting records on 00:00 maps - I vote for yes. But even if they will stay as it is, these shotcuts are quite shitty, killing whole map in a moment, so nobody will bother too much about them.

29/04/2015 21:40:00

thats why XJ should include [-md] verions ...

29/04/2015 21:52:00

for sure, but this is a work for web programmers

29/04/2015 19:54:00

Allow +use spam only for 10 seconds(or lower) maps and axn.

29/04/2015 19:56:00

40 seconds or less and axn in my opinion

29/04/2015 20:04:00

To be clear, what is +use bind?? Ofc i ment on +jump and +duck ,but just to be clear what is +use??

30/04/2015 00:50:00

Usually, your "E" key has "+use" bind on it. It's the button with which you start/stop the timer, and other stuff. What fame is trying to say with the post, is that they want to restrict the cases where people bind the "+use" on a button more than 1 times, so when you press, for example "E", it will look like you pressed "E" 4..5..6...x times in a row very fast, but in reality you only pressed the button once.

30/04/2015 15:59:00

Yea I realised that yesterday xD, I feel dumb again...

29/04/2015 20:16:00

Then give up on map like amazon, you will never press the button without the bind haha

29/04/2015 20:49:00

I cannot recall what exact scenario it was on amazon but I was able to hit the stop button in my kzie_bunnyheaven run.

29/04/2015 21:46:00

your spam style is so annoying g-Lp, I finished amazon without that stupid script, you should be able too

01/05/2015 23:54:00

it is not impossible to hit +use at the right time(Supa did it?) and it`s not really an advantage in my opinion the "+use spam" on that map or any other map because if you allow it for every guy who records a demo then it`s an equal chance for everyone. the ONLY problem admins have is finding the exact time of the run from the moment your "+use spam" FIRST reaches the start button and when it FIRST reaches stop button.

01/05/2015 23:55:00

what they need is a program that can find the exact +use command from those 5-10-15 spams of +use that starts and ends the timer and calculate the exact time of the run, right [user]65175[/user]?

02/05/2015 04:24:00

Right.

29/04/2015 20:23:00

I don't play with any scripts so i don't care :>

29/04/2015 21:08:00

allow them for axn maps only

30/04/2015 15:07:00

Great idea

29/04/2015 21:08:00

bind "mwheeldown" "+jump; wait; +use; wait" Or since "+jump; wait" isn't allowed: "+use; wait; +jump"

29/04/2015 21:26:00

RIP axn maps high speed.

29/04/2015 21:30:00

DeathClaw on 29/04/15 - 22:08:12 allow them for axn maps only

29/04/2015 21:47:00

As I can see some people misunderstood what was written in this post. The +jump and +duck commands have nothing to do here, the point is to forbid all the ways of +use command spam: +use bind on scroll, "+use; wait" scripts, macros – all of these will be restricted unless we find a way how to check demos with such scripts. I already thought about allowing it only for maps which have WR less than 10 sec, but it gives advantage on 1+ minute maps as well. For example, kzno_xtremeblock where +use spam makes a way easier to do start button SC.

29/04/2015 22:02:00

Then you can allow usage of that script for maps where its been used for reason (start scs or kzno_xtremeblock kz_42_amazon and some other maps)

29/04/2015 23:12:00

I guess the most hard moment (that reques skills from you) in these scs is exactly timing of pressing the button.

29/04/2015 22:18:00

well I didnt understand it so much but I dont think that it has something to do with +jump or so... I understand it like that: You can't use "scripts" with +use or bind mwheelup or mwheeldown with +use / you can't use those "scripts" anymore :"+use; wait" however they're working?

29/04/2015 23:56:00

People jump with scripts? lol Sounds good. I wonder who will be able to accomplish clintmo_falling now.

30/04/2015 02:15:00

It was a good battle but there's no denying emmalahana had lucky timing as to being last to beat the map before this amendment. Maybe it would be more fair if you gave people time or if you set a deadline before closing the gates completely, so that everybody would have a chance in the miliseconds struggle.

30/04/2015 00:12:00

Delete/replace all demos with scripts, how is this even a question ? Do not allow any to remain. Maybe it would be acceptable if it was mwheelup + jump and mwheeldown +use because at least then you would have to give up +duck, but to have both +use and +jump or +use and +duck on a single scroll direction is just cheating, so even if you wouldn't have this problem to check correct time, all the demos using this script should still be removed/replaced. Since you have this time checking problem though, simply do not allow any +use on the scroll, delete all demos/replace all demos with legit ones. This is the only logical option.

30/04/2015 01:50:00

Good ideea fucking +use script I agree restore all old demos

30/04/2015 02:35:00

damn chets

30/04/2015 03:12:00

xj are too lazy getting time of run by watching demos and then sum frametimes)

30/04/2015 04:03:00

IMO demos with this script should have never been accepted.

30/04/2015 05:56:00

I didn't understand. 5 years passed and u still haven't get a solution! BRAVO!

good move, kinda diasppointed of +use scripts or mwheel bind since it has been accepted for the first time..

30/04/2015 08:58:00

if @Keo was right about fame's Idea of restriction. Then I highly agree... Using "E" as +use is the best idea to deal with the situation. and BTW if I can add, I know its not the target here but since I find it relevant, if ppl can just use the-> bind mwheelup "+duck" instead of "+duck; wait ;+duck" [something like that] to clear the demo for the demo checkers. if this is not relevant then I'm sry.

30/04/2015 11:20:00

This is pretty stupid imo, I mean we've come so far that most maps are diminished to almost perfect times, expecting people to beat maps like "bkz_goldbhop" with seconds isn't likely to happen. so in conclusion we will lose a lot of new wrs with this.

30/04/2015 19:19:00

True dat.

02/05/2015 06:14:00

he's right, would be pretty unfair to ppl who already have done records with one of these "scripts" and perhaps took ages to for them.

30/04/2015 16:05:00

this bad idea i think

30/04/2015 16:29:00

what, +use script was LEGAL? it's the most stupid thing, it's the same as bhop script +use on the scroll is ok I guess, just like jumping and ducking on the scroll is double bind for use+jump on scroll up is also ok, because there are mouses with multiple scrolls, and ''you have to give up +duck or +jump on scroll in order to use +use'' is stupid IMO to recap, banning +use scripts should be done (and has to be done) immediately, even if you find that solution but banning +use on scroll if you don't find a solution is a sad thing, so I hope there's some way to bypass those problems (even I didn't understand them quite well)

01/05/2015 00:55:00

don't do it

01/05/2015 02:15:00

As per my understanding, the ban hasn't been implemented yet. This is merely an open discussion about it, don't freak out yet guys. I thought such scripts were forbidden already, and they should have been. As some guys above already said: delete the records which were made using such scripts and restore legit (non-scripted) records. Pax phrased it well and I agree with his points. This would be a pretty bad blow to the community, since all the short AXN-records would become untouchable and many "legendary maps" like coldbhop/goldbhop would just become stagnant oases avoided by the skilled navigators of the desert, the tuaregs. As the endless march of time and progress goes on, more and more records would become practically impossible to defeat. And why is it impossible to check the demos? Shouldn't it just be highly inconvenient and time-consuming, but still possible in practice? If it's possible, please continue your hard work until you come up with something helpful. Only a small portion of records is being made with +use bound on the scroll at the moment anyways. If binding +jump to the scroll is allowed, I think +use should be allowed too. Scripts should always be forbidden. Different simple binds should be allowed. The rules shouldn't have any exceptions or special cases. Either go on with the ban completely and let most AXN-records and short world records rot for eternity or struggle and find a way. If there is no way, then it sucks and we have to live with it. I hope it all works out for the best. I'm happy you brought it up for discussion before going forth with any drastic changes. tl;dr: bad idea, find a solution, ban all scripts, restore legit records, struggle, smoke weed & get laid, happy first of may, I wish u all the best

01/05/2015 14:18:00

Impossible means NOT possible. You just can't find out which one duck started/ended the timer using current democheck tools. Yes, binding +use on scroll should be fine idea, but unfortunately the effect will be the same. And until anyone will create new tools, there is no queation about allow +use or not - the question is should we delete demos on very short maps like kz_man_bhopocean or not. Noone tells about deleting all records, don't confuse yourself and other members.

01/05/2015 09:04:00

If you have already tweaked the game 7 years before when you decided to bind jump with mwheelup to help you jump and bhop then to provide equality of justice on settings you have three options left. (1) allow bind scripts on everything- say hello to tons of milliseconds improvement and stop cribbing about oh it's the same run (2) eradicate all binding - say goodbye to kz (3) work harder - evolve your demochecking systems

01/05/2015 12:01:00

In my opinion it is very bad idea. Like several predecessors said, we will lose a lot of wrs. I think a lot of people recorded with it, some of them worked hard for wr and I'm sure that they deserve for it. So deleting demos is the worst thing that you can do. There are more maps than you think, which without that bind "+use;wait" will be just a torture. I was sure that kz is something cosy, but when you ban bind, I feel impression that by your decision will hinder it. This bind was allowed till now, everyone could use it, so everybody had that same chance? Maybe I'm wrong, but somehow I can't convinced to this idea. And making exceptions, i don't know, I can't see anything positive in it. Currently I see only two solutions: -improve your demochecking -turn a blind eye on this like you did it so far.

01/05/2015 14:41:00

And again, NOT ALL the demos will be deleted (if any of them even will, and that what main post asks), don't dramatize so much. If you think that most of demos are recorded with use script, download and watch them again - bkz_goldbhop (and other KeltA's demos) are recorded w/o it, kzno_extremeblock (and other LEWLY's demos) are recorded w/o it. Maybe Bibika, Toffifee, DeathClaw are using it? No. Most of such demos are recorded on "new" (released in the last 2 years). Yes, coldbhop is recorded with script, but recall, that shNz was fighting against powerful cheater and he just had to find something legal (at that time) that will help him.

01/05/2015 23:47:00

i used this in some of my demos. short ones

01/05/2015 12:19:00

@prad, (4) delete/replace cheated demos ? Lol. Your options are funny, but you are missing the most obvious one. @veproit, should cheaters demos not be removed either ? because we will lose wrs ? bhop scripts were never allowed, where's the logic in allowing +use script ?

01/05/2015 15:18:00

I was talking about "use;wait" bind. Yea bhop scripts were always banned, but we don't talk about it. I don't mean here cheaters. For me using it is just normal. Where is logic, when the first someone allow something later ban this? For you here is an example: First you allow to use shortcuts or bugs then few years later you will change your mind and you will remove demos people who use it? Isn't it ridiculous? Where is your logic, when they wonder about to make an expections for some maps? If you call use;wait cheat, then you don't think using expection isn't riduculous? Cheat is cheat or i'm wrong? This bind help in pressing start and stop. You can't press start twice cuz there are plugins with block it (I mean here plugins for recording). I think you can barely do about 0,5-0,7s better time with it. For me these bind and bhop scripts are two distrinct things.

01/05/2015 15:29:00

Bad news are that cheater can just modify sourse code of recording plugin. And demochecker wouldn't know about it, cause all logic will happen on client side. Maybe you saw gladius' plugin on the forum. There is an interesting cvar, kz_losttouch, that in fact does exactly what I said. I deleted this cvar for russian community, but it doesn't mean that someone wouldn't use it.

01/05/2015 14:54:00

Of course it's hard solution for users and admins, but someone must correct the mistakes of past administration, and I'm glad to see that finally one man with steel balls can take the brunt. And about suggestions like "just update your tools, wtf" - are you understand guys that "working hard" isn't enough to do this, you should have a great experience in demochecking and programming skills. Of course we can call eDark and ask to spent his time again, but should we? Maybe we can enjoy kz without any scripts?

01/05/2015 15:23:00

And remember - scripts with "wait" commands were restrictred and still are restricted. Cosy accepted it cause of mistake, here I guess it happened, because binding +use on scroll was allowed and admins couldn't find difference between scrtipt and bind on scroll in their checking tools (yeah, it's kinda obvious, when player does doubleduck, bhop and spamming use at the same demo, but it's not appropriate way to fight it).

01/05/2015 16:08:00

What will happen about kzfr_bhop_wood & ins_axn_tooncastle ?

01/05/2015 17:11:00

It should be decided now. I hope these records will stay, but unfortunately seems like in future such records won't be accepted. Hitting button in axn is very tricky thing, I spent half of time on recording doing it. And I fully understand that for you as AXN pro this is very bad news. Maybe there will be programmer who will update tools speacially for AXN, but chances are quite small. Anyway, I believe you can beat all your current records even without script, since your skill grows every day.

02/05/2015 03:26:00

Funny how you say " AXN pro " but imagine for a map like kz_man_bhopforest, you'll probably be able to hit the button 1 / 100 I guess without the +use script, atleast +use on scroll should be allowed for that speed amount :D

01/05/2015 17:07:00

fuck the +use scripters i always hated the use of this in records... might aswell allow bhop script then to get unfair advantages

01/05/2015 19:07:00

+1

02/05/2015 09:02:00

@akkord yep, sad thing today about many players, they'd rather have scripts play for them than to improve on their own.

02/05/2015 11:46:00

I'm pretty sure i once read that you can only bind one command to each key in the demo rules here many years ago. If they used "+jump; wait; +use", then that's three commands. I think it said that "+jump; wait" wasn't allowed either, because that makes it easier to time bhops. Even if you switch the script to "+use; wait; +jump" it will still give you the advantage for easier bhop and ofc use spamming.

02/05/2015 12:03:00

Why can't we edit posts? Another thing tho. I'm for one command per key, but that would also mean that this would be allowed. bind "mwheelup" "+use" bind "f" "exec config2.cfg" bind "mwheelup" "+duck" Or it must be disallowed to exec configs during a demo run.

02/05/2015 14:49:00

Im sorry but I feel like I have to say it again considering such comments - its one of the most retard initiatives on XJ I've ever seen. Not only it confuses people, but it also misleads them. 1. Most scripts and all macros already go against the existing rules, so such demos should be deleted without questions, no matter how much of them are there. I don't know why its even brought up here. 2. The main reason why this issue is brought up: "Impossible to check real time on new maps" - first of all [b]its a lie[/b]. It is possible, just very time consuming and tedious (low speed playback f.e.). Secondly record holders should not care what XJ can or cannot check right now, jumpers should be able to use ALL LEGAL ways and techniques to improve their demos. +jump was once assigned to scroll to make bhop easier, so can be +use - its no different. 3. Maps were made to be played and recorded by the exact same rules. "unfair towards maps which would become unbeatable without +use spam" is lamest excuse to introduce double standards and categorize maps. Its either legal or not, that simple. If bkz_goldbhop would be beaten 100 times with slowmo - we must remove ALL illegal demos, not allow slowmo for that map. If its legal for "some" maps then then what makes it illegal for other maps? PS. I would be more tolerant to this initiative, but I know for the fact that there were not nearly enough efforts to solve the actual demochecking issue so far.

11/05/2015 04:13:00

???

18/06/2015 05:52:00

maybe nobody reads this but i used to compare with viewdemo tools and skip between one frame to the next and note down the time on the demo that the button is pressed at the end time and then minus the time for the frame which the start time is pressed seeing as all demos are 100 fps this always gave me the correct realtime run for many demos, so what am i missing?

24/04/2018 01:11:00

I read!

18/06/2015 05:55:00

also guys if u were wondering i remember tapping my +use key and looking at the difference between a +use;wait;-use;wait spam bind when i was spamming with one key it was about 16 frames (0.16s) between my presses so for me and my slow fingers the bind could save anywhere from 0.00 to 0.15 depending on luck in a LAN server where u can't re-start the start timer in the same round and maybe a little more time in a public server with the start button being hit a few times until u are too far away to press it anymore