Alternative routes (map destroyers)

By Ovidiu Dumitru·
Hello XJ!

And MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

We are very pleased to bring forward the following news, as a surprise for Christmas and more importantly as a sign of appreciation for you, the community that keeps this game alive.

It has been long debated about the maps that are ruined due to a fault in their design and thus causing severe changes in their gameplay, as opposed to what the mapper intended to.
The public debates as well as the private ones that us, the admins, had were numerous, most of the times resulting in a draw. Perhaps, due to strict policies and different ideologies, no measures were ever taken on this matter.
But today I'm proud to announce that we have finally come to a decision and most importantly is that XJ wants to change and wants to embrace a new direction, with the main focus being what the community wants.

So, we OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCE that starting today, the maps that suffer severe shortcuts that alter their intended gameplay due to a fault in their design, are NOW AVAILABLE TO RECORD in their purest form: exactly how the mapper envisioned his maps!

However, this announcement officially welcomes just 10 maps for now, with the rest currently being decided internally, and MOST IMPORTANTLY is that WE URGE YOU, the PLAYERS of this COMMUNITY, to NOMINATE what maps you think should be added to this list in the comments section below. We will take into consideration your ideas and nominations, but also please keep in mind that the final decision still depends on the admins and that probably some of the public nominations won't make it to the final list.

Without further ado, these are the first maps that officially open this special list:

cg_industry[full] - must visit all areas via climbing
dg_winterclimb[+caves] - must visit all areas via climbing
kz_ghat[+cave] - must go through cave
kz_j2s_icevalley[-boost] - no vertical boost from button
kz_man_bhopdesert[-boost] - no vertical boost from the button
kz_man_bhopocean[-boost] - no vertical boost from the button
kz_man_bhopsnow[-boost] - no vertical boost from the button
risk_compound[full] - must visit all areas via climbing
rpz_downfall[boxes_full] - must go intended route using boxes
trC_climbgarden[full] - must visit all areas via climbing

Huge thanks to spr1n and kz-baltic.eu for assisting us.

We will keep a close eye to the comments section down below now that the season for map destroyers has come!
Thank you for staying with us and don't go anywhere, as more exciting news will keep coming. And don't forget, we also have a CS:GO KZ implementation to be made.

Merry Christmas again and see you soon! Now go recording!
XJ Staff

Comments

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25/12/2015 03:23:00

well done, it took you 4 years

25/12/2015 12:06:00

4? It was November 2009 (6 years ago, http://xtreme-jumps.eu/news.php?extend.1147) when we had the decimal system discussion. I am pretty sure the map destroyers talks have taken place at least 7-8 years ago... How does it always happen like that? It must be XJ who makes the "big changes" in order to keep KZ alive, but there are those other communities (pretty much every national/international) that implement it before XJ does.. And then XJ waits for YEARS in order to implement it on their own website when it's sooooo late....

25/12/2015 12:09:00

The vote: Would you like XJ to implement new routes for heavily shortened maps by "destroyer shortcuts"? (Map list + explainations in the comments) Has taken place in 2012... http://xtreme-jumps.eu/e107_plugins/poll/oldpolls.php?121

25/12/2015 15:27:00

My bad then. I forgot when topic about this started at xj's admin forum :P You are totally right. An example about implementing things are some cs:go kreedz comunities and here its "work in progress". The date of cs:go beta release is November 30, 2011, full release August 21, 2012. btw about this poll Country: Romania Ovidiu Dumitru on 22/06/12 - 15:42:35 Comments: 170 Default XJ Avatar No!

25/12/2015 03:26:00

It can take you less than 1 second to stop visiting this website if you don't like it. It's not mandatory.

25/12/2015 03:28:00

a guest is a god :)

25/12/2015 05:06:00

no1 said I don't like it, it's a good thing. Stop acting like a typical politician please. Take criticism sometimes. You could definitely do this long time ago.

25/12/2015 13:15:00

Is that the response you though of for that criticism? Your posts are so serious and childish at the same time. What does his post have to do with not liking the website? You really should have learned to accept criticism and respond properly before accepting the CEO position of a pretty popular website. And also, why religion and politics are forbidden topics in this website? Because of the chance of a huge argue? People should have the right to express any feelings about any topic in a public website, like it was in XJ years ago. People can fight over a topic like which kz player is the best, maybe kz talk should be forbidden also?

25/12/2015 03:29:00

Good call, should have been done long ago though. Not good seeing great maps ruined because of bugs. Good job cyclopp and co!

25/12/2015 05:17:00

Co no longer admin?

25/12/2015 21:09:00

what?

25/12/2015 21:41:00

The Co.

25/12/2015 04:05:00

go go go g o :-)

25/12/2015 05:17:00

NICE

25/12/2015 05:35:00

Nice! Waiting to see a bkz_wallblock WR!

25/12/2015 06:18:00

Nice decision, never understood why it wasn't implemented, we only had long arguments but no positive outcomes. The most important thing is how the mapper wanted his creation to be played, so it's the right thing finally being done. Add up londonStation, wallblock, bhopblock You need to decide how much is a sc and a md, is the kzse_bhopblock a md or a sc? Same for wallblock.

25/12/2015 08:12:00

The same of have big SC for finish map's list.. bkz_wallblock bkm_tbt_LondonStation cg_d2block_ez fof_32 and etc.. Maybe find SC just beat another ways?

25/12/2015 08:28:00

<deleted>

25/12/2015 09:12:00

kz_man_bhopdesert[-boost] - no vertical boost from the button kz_man_bhopocean[-boost] - no vertical boost from the button kz_man_bhopsnow[-boost] - no vertical boost from the button They are already done.

25/12/2015 09:14:00

Great! kz ep gigablock b01 kz cg wigbl0ck

25/12/2015 09:34:00

kzro_raincliff

25/12/2015 10:17:00

kz_man_deathhill Also good job xj staff on implementing this

25/12/2015 10:21:00

kz_ea_parkblock kz_cg_xtremedesert bkz_dusttemple

25/12/2015 10:38:00

kz_phoogi

25/12/2015 10:29:00

add more map for god sakes! like gigablock

25/12/2015 10:35:00

Have you read the entire news?

25/12/2015 10:50:00

Great news! and merry xmas everybody! [img]https://media.giphy.com/media/6FkXvuwt9MAFi/giphy.gif[/img]

25/12/2015 11:37:00

Maybe kzpl_christmasmission? It's a cosy map, especially for xmas, but that sc from the start ruined it. kzpl_christmass[full] cuz there are one more sc ;)

25/12/2015 11:46:00

good idea :D

25/12/2015 12:21:00

Great news. GJ XJ

25/12/2015 13:02:00

i'm not keen on this news

25/12/2015 13:14:00

bkm_tbt_LondonStation[full] - can't use slope (to cut whole map nor first area) cg_d2block_ez[full] - no boost from ladder glitch, and have to climb all blockparts cg_industry[full] - must visit all areas via climbing cg_islands[full] - must visit all areas via climbing clintmo_longjumper[+256] - new route including either 256hj left or right. clintmo_pentablock[-barrels] - no barrel usage for boosting dg_winterclimb[+caves] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_6fd_volcano[-minimap] - cant use minimap TP for following eb/wb/jb/db kz_ea_harbor[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_ep_gigablock_b01[full] - must visit all blockparts via climbing kz_ghat[+cave] - must go through cave kz_giantbean_b15[giantbean] - must climb giantbean including second half kz_j2s_icevalley[-boost] - no vertical boost from button kz_kzsca_ancestry[minimap] - minimap provides new route with start/stop kz_man_alienbase[-vehicle] - no vehicle usage for boosting kz_man_everest[full] - must visit all caves/areas via climbing kz_man_(ez)nasa[-vehicle] - no vehicle usage for boosting kz_man_ultrablock[full] - must visit all blockparts via climbing kz_rambo_xen[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_wsp_marioland[full] - must visit all areas via climbing with or without maze risk_compound[full] - must visit all areas via climbing rpz_downfall[boxes_full] - must go intended route using boxes trC_climbgarden[full] - must visit all areas via climbing zr_hetablock[easy_full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_kzfr_bhopspace[-boost] - no vertical boost from the button kz_man_bhopdesert[-boost] - no vertical boost from the button kz_man_bhopocean[-boost] - no vertical boost from the button kz_man_bhopsnow[-boost] - no vertical boost from the button straight from the kz-baltic website, all of these would be great.

25/12/2015 13:16:00

i see that spr1n already assisted you, but i'd like to still see some of the maps in that list in xj.

25/12/2015 13:34:00

defo for the list

26/12/2015 00:26:00

Hea :D

25/12/2015 13:58:00

<deleted>

25/12/2015 14:00:00

kz_cargo kz_chinabl0ck kz_chinabl0ck_ez kz_excavation kz_facility kz_faw_cathedral_e kz_faw_cathedral_h kz_highblock_xp kz_kzsca_downtown kz_kzse_towerblock kz_kzse_towerblock_h kz_man_madness kz_man_neighbourhood kz_man_streetclimb kz_man_urbanjump kz_midnight kz_wsp_valleyclimb kz_xj_rockblock risk_ministry

25/12/2015 14:22:00

what do you mean "we" are pleased to bring you.. i'm on the map team and its the first i've heard of it

25/12/2015 17:58:00

rofl

25/12/2015 15:25:00

I nominate kz_man_(ez)nasa[-vehicle] - no vehicle usage for boosting @2Dex yeah, that thread was easily the most popular of the year. I think this debate could be done with a proper thread and no ban threats so that I could actually take it more serious unlike that pathetic bait attempt.

25/12/2015 16:00:00

CHRISTMAS IS RUINED!

25/12/2015 17:03:00

wow finaly a good change

25/12/2015 17:05:00

kzse_bhopblock

25/12/2015 17:14:00

haha memek :DDD

27/12/2015 14:36:00

I'm serious since WR is like 12s and without SCs you can't do it under 2mins.

25/12/2015 18:05:00

ccn_scourge

25/12/2015 18:06:00

that dcj sc

25/12/2015 19:28:00

kzua_zp_godroom_h :D

27/12/2015 16:28:00

There is pretty much left in that map to call that strafejump a map destroyer.

27/12/2015 18:18:00

There are 3 big scs in this map...

25/12/2015 21:00:00

Imo you should only add new routes to really destroyed maps, like risk_compound, dg_winterclimb, etc. Creating new routes for maps with little scs (like kz_facility, chinabl0cks, excavation), i think it would be stupid

26/12/2015 05:04:00

Indeed, Agus is right. XJ should add new routes for maps that are REALLY destroyed by 1 big SC (kz_space, bhopsnow, rpz boxes). Although I'd really want to see maps like gigablock, wigbl0ck, facility, excavation and many others being down without SCs, that list would be HUGE, because almost every map has it's shortcut

26/12/2015 01:52:00

kz_cfl_mountainchurch clintmo_bhopbarrels clintmo_bhopriver kz_xj_mounthard kz_megabhop (and hard version) kz_deathvalley any axn map starts with pressing the button by player which not moving...

26/12/2015 10:54:00

kz_cg_rivacliff, kz_bridge maybe there are other ways

26/12/2015 12:54:00

Why no one mentioned kz_42_amazon? :D

26/12/2015 14:44:00

6fd_volcano got to be in the list...

26/12/2015 15:33:00

plz just add maps where we can enjoy another route (probablly a complete visit of all climb areas), not maps where shortcuts can save only 30s-1min cuz its ridiculous... you must add only destroyed maps by scs... dont make a big list

26/12/2015 19:36:00

+support deathhill and bhopblock

26/12/2015 22:40:00

Nice :D

27/12/2015 00:45:00

fu_extreme[-nocp]

27/12/2015 09:44:00

n1

27/12/2015 19:35:00

nice one

28/12/2015 10:24:00

cg_cupiators[+lj][+hj][+bhop] - 3ways in without SC kz_cfl_mountainchurch[full] - must visit all areas via climbing risk_ministry[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_midnight[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_gianttree_b15 all 3 routes without large SC kz_1man_understock[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_j2s_darktower[-boost] - cant do sc at the start and the final kz_space2[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_man_alienbase[-vehiche] - no vehiche sc at start clintmo_falling[-eb] - no eb sc kz_xj_rockblock[full] - no the largest sc kz_xj_mounthard[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_man_madness[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_toscana[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_man_neighbourhood[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_dp_medieval - must visit all areas via climbing risk_crashed[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_man_ultrablock[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_42_amazon[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_wsp_arpino[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_alpin[full] - no any surf sc kz_man_streetclimb[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_highlands[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_fairy_island[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_exn_[ez]jungle[full] - no surf sc kz_adv_underground[full] - no any jb,eb sc kz_kzsca_downtown[full] - must visit all areas via climbing cg_girdblock[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_chinabl0ck[_ez][full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_wsp_marioland[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_beachmountain[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_ancient_tomb[full] - must visit all areas via climbing cg_damaged_city[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_j2s_tetris[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_man_everest[+cave] - must visit the cave via climbing kz_kzsk_desperados[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_kzfr_vache_and_cow[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_man_urbanjump[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_kzfr_alexandrie[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_kzfr_haunted[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_man_forest[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_man_redrock[full] - no jb/eb ri_spacecliff[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_cfl_yamakasi[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_kzfr_mariocastle[full] - must visit all areas via climbing kz_unicorn[-boost] - no press button opposite the wall

28/12/2015 18:13:00

Please don't put [full] just use [-sc] instead, seems to be better

28/12/2015 20:47:00

Nice! :)

28/12/2015 22:00:00

Please understand Alternative routes are about MAPS and not shortcuts (nor techniques used there). Thats exactly the reason (one of) why this idea failed every single time before, the principle of world records on kz maps is still remains "the fastest way possible from point A to point B". Restricting specific techniques or trying to define difference between skips from mapdestroyers is waste of time and not reasonably possible. Additionally many maps have a lot of alternative shortcut within same area which makes any restrictions pointless. The point of this innovation is to reintroduce considerable mapparts of old maps, that were left out from the records and deserve actual separate route

29/12/2015 16:13:00

be carefull with trc_climbgarden... with the slide part at the begining of the map u can go wherever you want... which will be the restrictions? obligatory visit the whole map?

30/12/2015 20:25:00

[full] route implies you need to visit all areas and sections via climbing. this means that shortcut becomes useless other than for boosting yourself from start button towards first climbing section directly. if its used to go up than it would be considered as area/section skip and will not fall under the route definition.

02/01/2016 03:29:00

The best news on XJ in a looooooong time! Let's look at Faker/admins counter arguments for this implementation: [b]Since there were many questions about if we are still going to implement this or why we didn't implement this yet, I wanna lay down the arguments that led to the decision that we are not going to do this: - The definition of "map breakers" would always underlay the grade of definition, once you open up the borders there is no way back and it is going to be impossible to find a common ground everybody will agree on about what is a "map breaker" and what is a normal shortcut. [color=#009900]No. It wouldn't have been impossible for everyone to have found that common ground definition of a "map breaker" and a normal shortcut, because as the laws of XJ states: Admins are always right. Which means admins would have set the rules as they prefered and everyone else would have had to follow them to get their demo approved.[/color] - In conjunction with the first point, it would be a big problem once another map breaker, that lies between the normal route and the -map breaker route, is found: the old -mapbreaker record would have to be deleted, as it's not possible to segment the records even more (-mapbreaker1 & -mapbreaker2). Deleting demos is, as you can imagine, a very bad thing and we want to avoid this. This would be more obvious for maps like volcano, for other maps it would be way more complicated of course. However, adding extra routes for some maps and don't for others doesn't really seem consistent and fair as well. [color=#009900]I see how this is tricky indeed, but it's not unsolvable. I don't see a problem in giving extra routes to some maps however. Some maps just don't have any big shortcuts, therefor they don't need to have multiple records. What a big shortcut is must then be defined by the admins.[/color] - All these additional routes and record will lead to a higher number of available maps and would be quite "easy" records - as they are basically the same map all over again with a slightly different route. Players who are already good at this map could easily get just another record without too much effort. This would generally decrease the "worth" of every single world record in the list (which is the same reason why we always try to avoid adding too easy and too small maps to the custom map cycle). [color=#009900]Indeed all the additional routes and records will lead to a higher number of maps, and that is something this site/community is CRAVING! How many maps get released each year ? Not just each year, but how often do they occur ? Exactly.. Adding all this is a way to kind of breath a little bit of fresh air into all these "forgotten" maps. The wish must be that recording activity within CS 1.6 KZ goes up again. So many members in this community, yet so extremely few demos in comparison! How can it decrese the worth of every single WR when the current WR's won't even be touched ?[/color] - This is a "lame" point, as this shouldn't be a point or an excuse, but it is still an issue nevertheless: It would cause way more work. Not only for the demo admin(s), which isn't the big factor here, but also the website and recording rules would have to be updated after every map release (and probably even in between). Every map would need specific rules with screenshots about the shortcut classifications and details about the different routes. [color=#009900]I don't think there would have to be such a frequent update of the rules over this, but I do see that concern.[/color] - Last but not least... This rule would go against the very principles this community was built with: all shortcuts are allowed and part of the game. This was always a huge and popular rule of XJ and helped to diversify XJ from other sites (just as kzmaps.co.uk back then, when they had a rule that forbid all SCs that skipped more than 5 jumps).[/b] [color=#009900]You can't keep living in the past of how great things once were. Changing ancient principles isn't necessarily a bad thing. In order to achieve, you have to be willing to change.[/color]

02/01/2016 20:01:00

Appreciate your input mate and you brought up very interesting aspects, however I have to comment on some things 1. faker is right, there is no distinct borderline between "map breakers" and regular shortcuts and never will be (banning some techniques would make people use other techniques and will still destroy a map coz many maps have alternative shortcuts, banning >5 jump skips would work for one map but would be irrelevant for the rest etc etc.). This also means admins themselves would be forced to make inconsistent, questionable and subjective decisions, which may look appropriate at first - would actually lead to case to case basis "rules" and set grounds for confusion and mistakes. This is just a basic overview why its a bad practice, such strategy would not be able to control this concept properly in a long term and its integrity would collapse eventually. 2.XJ always had a conservative stand on this aspect and nobody really looked for a solution from administrative point of view, so public efforts to find a distinct definition of "map breakers" were doomed to fail every time. Additionally it is against principles of kz climbing: fastest way possible from point A to point B with any shortcuts. This time we are taking approach with [u]map architecture[/u] in mind and completely ignoring nature or shortcuts used to "destroy" the map. This gives us basic understanding of [u]map sections/blockparts/areas[/u] understanding to define new alternative routes and avoid different interpretation of shortcuts or routes. At the same time we are keeping kz climbing principles intact and giving new properly defined routes on maps. However choosing such maps will be up to admins in the end and deciding which map deserves a new route is quite debatable, but there is some set of rules in order to avoid known issues and keep concept integrity. I can see many people here are concerned that some "bad maps" will qualify, I hope this concept will work good and prevent from that as well, while keep adding relative number of new routes over time. Last but not least I agree with you, kz principles are important but XJ should make more attempts and leaps to move forward and evolve. Cheers!

04/01/2016 02:06:00

Thanks mate. I appreciate your response as well! 1. I see what you mean. Wanting for every map to have their own rule, is probably too much to control in long term speaking yeah :/ I can't remember hearing anything about adding a restriction for certain techniques ? That is until I read your earlier post here. I was thinking about that [-/+] thing. 1 demo allows for everything, the other requires you to go through the entire map or as it's being said: every room. I see now that it was too much to hope for.. 2. I understand the fastest way possible principle, but that shouldn't ALWAYS apply in my opinion. Some maps have suffered tremendously from that and it affects the mapper as well as the community for not being allowed to record it as it was intended to. I see that having to execute a really hard shortcut makes maps attractive, but not when it comes at the cost of losing the maps value. Basically putting half of it into oblivion because of a shortcut/map destroyer. The coming change sounds very promising, and i'm really looking forward to see how it all turns out! A bunch of appropriate maps have been suggested!

02/01/2016 11:51:00

for me these are great new !

09/01/2016 08:05:00

kz_halicarnassus - SC cuts alot from the beginning