First list of cl_sidespeed cheaters.

By Juhmp·
After some hard work by eDark and Z0ck3rOO7 here is the first list of users who will receive a warning for submitting a demo with an illegal cl_sidespeed value.

DeadlyShot, przelon, kropeq, flaip and Dmitrich.

They are still finishing up checking demos, so let's not hope for any more names to add to this list. :D

Comments

You need to be logged in to post a comment.

Juhmp
11 Mar 2008, 21:50

gj edark and z0cker

rn
11 Mar 2008, 21:51

go ahead ;)

Mehz
11 Mar 2008, 21:51

+1 to Juhmp.

omilo
11 Mar 2008, 21:51

Good work edark & zocker...lets hope that to many others havent used this :/

BooLiSH
11 Mar 2008, 21:52

well done you two ;) flaip haxed?^^

LOLLY mapper
11 Mar 2008, 21:53

WOOT flaip :/

Fliborecord holder Tournament #2
11 Mar 2008, 21:56

gj flaip!

ehlak
11 Mar 2008, 21:58

gj flaip! :D

trb
11 Mar 2008, 21:59

flaip :(

ajR`
11 Mar 2008, 22:01

LOL @ others. But flaip. :(

DHT- Tournament #1
11 Mar 2008, 22:02

wtf flaip

pacMan mapper
11 Mar 2008, 22:02

loool flaip? :X

SchlumPF
11 Mar 2008, 22:02

pwned by eDark

PepoMerca
11 Mar 2008, 22:04

gj eDark!

WyB
11 Mar 2008, 22:04

rofl @ DeadlyShot, I remember how he posted in the forum "yo look new prestrafe record 277,xxx" roflmao!

Mentalo
11 Mar 2008, 22:05

haha noobs! why dont you just leave this community if you cheaters keep fucking with us! noobs is all i can say

TinTin
11 Mar 2008, 22:05

so, so sad. <3 eDark and zock :D

Simplicity
11 Mar 2008, 22:10

considering how old school flaip is, this wasn't probably even mentioned back in the day, and i didn't think he even had any records left lol. gj edark and z0ck

stask0 Tournament #2
11 Mar 2008, 22:10

lol flaip.... gj eDark and zocker :P

J1`
11 Mar 2008, 22:14

i dont think they are noobs mentalo :\ they didnt even know about this rule, because its new. :\

Mentalo
11 Mar 2008, 22:16

lol they didnt use standardsettings so they are fucking cheater noobs nothing more!

DHT- Tournament #1
11 Mar 2008, 22:17

so? they did change a command.. that's just a dumb argument if u ask me Dumble -_- they can't defend themselfs, they changed a command and THEY DID KNOW THAT THEY CHANGED IT.

MuscLe
11 Mar 2008, 22:19

:D flap

Mentalo
11 Mar 2008, 22:20

rofl ye DHT hard to believe someones sleeping whlie changing commands

akM
11 Mar 2008, 22:20

lol flaip and Dmitrich

k3G
11 Mar 2008, 22:21

word Dumble ^^ i don't think flaip knows the new rules about sidespeed , peace

Mentalo
11 Mar 2008, 22:23

vut certainly he knows that it makes him jump further thats enough for me to call it cheating! cuz the rules say you have to use default settings :!

colix mapper
11 Mar 2008, 22:24

haha bastards! admins have cought u! u cant hide from the big xj admins, they r more powerfull than ever! gj eDark & Z0ck3r007 ;)

Dacca
11 Mar 2008, 22:24

GJ eDark and Z0ck3rOO7 <3

Mentalo
11 Mar 2008, 22:26

lol chuck norris finds a cheater! edark and zocker find 5 :O

remo
11 Mar 2008, 22:27

its the same as if there was no rule about gravity.. u change it and say its no cheat lol..

heiss
11 Mar 2008, 22:33

imo they all deserve a bann ..

Dogos^
11 Mar 2008, 22:34

gj guys then you should add the cl_sidespeed comand in the demolyser =D

kaNtaz
11 Mar 2008, 22:37

edark is doing really much for this community

Lovesan
11 Mar 2008, 22:38

Right mentalo and remo. They ARE cheaters, the same as slowmo guys. GJ admins, shame on you Dmitrich.

slaip
11 Mar 2008, 22:41

not care about others but flaip :( gj eDark and Z0ck3rOO7

kropeq
11 Mar 2008, 22:58

sorry guys, now i send demos with cl_sidespeed 400

Judah
11 Mar 2008, 22:59

.. Flaip. How disapoiting, that someone would ruin his reputation.

MuscLe
11 Mar 2008, 22:59

I don't care, but they will not be banned?

Lovesan
11 Mar 2008, 23:00

MuscLepaN~: "...users who will receive a warning..."

MuscLe
11 Mar 2008, 23:08

:(

s0liD mapper
11 Mar 2008, 23:11

-1 to juhmp = 0 juhmp

kreedzfreak
11 Mar 2008, 23:25

oh lol nice work.. why everyone has to cheat to get better :OOO

Supa
11 Mar 2008, 23:27

bleh flaip is still good. he still does kz maps fast. you need good sync anyways to have much of an advantage with forward speed. i doubt he knew though that it made you jump farther as simplicity said. he could pwn metalo any day rofl

DooMiX
11 Mar 2008, 23:30

oh no flaip :( :( :(

boom.dll
11 Mar 2008, 23:39

besides the fact that it gives you +1-2 units when u prestrafe, it doesn`t strafe for you, and it doesn`t jump for u... so stfu all u flamers... due to them ... another illegal command was found... it`s not that we should praise them, but it`s not like they used a bhop/lj script... it still is a client command! REMEMBER THAT... no need to flame anyone... it`s good it was discovered and for that we should be happy... -13213 all flamers GJ eDark & zocker for ur patience :)

maniac
11 Mar 2008, 23:39

admins, you made a good job so far. what a pity that flaip used this command.

Mr.Jumper
12 Mar 2008, 00:17

GJ eDark & zocker =) what would be the community without eDarks knowledge but still, there should be fairness for everybody... read the rules guys/admins and act correctly with those "cheaters": - Cheating in LJ demos will be punished, too: U'll get banned for 2 months, so dont try to punk us Reasons for a ban are: -> Wrong serversettings, -> Developer 1 -> Cheat plugins why dont they get a timeban...? In my opinion they deserver it, they tried to punk the community :F

SlyfherR
12 Mar 2008, 00:19

[color=#ff6699]GJ! :D[/color]

lalevUl
12 Mar 2008, 00:21

Nice work eDark & Z0ck3rOO7!

shadowman.
12 Mar 2008, 00:37

:( Dmitrich.

Trickster
12 Mar 2008, 00:45

Mr.Jumper. couse this is a new rule ? going redicilous. -1 admins

FragMcCracken mapper
12 Mar 2008, 00:49

why only a warning? i think a ban would be the best way how to handle that btw gj cheatdetect0rs

assssssss
12 Mar 2008, 01:12

gd edark lolz

chrizZo
12 Mar 2008, 03:07

eeeeeeeh ok, flaip :(

sj
12 Mar 2008, 04:31

why even a warning? there was no rule that its forbidden before so there shouldnt be any banning/warnings for demos that have been submitted before the new rule. maybe those people just changed it because they just felt more comfortable with it, without knowing its gives a real advantage? or they havent changed it at all and played on some server that changed it? <-- this happened to me ive started jumping with cl_sidespeed 2XX. i didnt know its not the standard value. some day ive reinstalled cs and played with standard cl_sidespeed. felt strange strange in the beginning but ive gotten used to it.

CothA
12 Mar 2008, 05:37

rofl

theddy
12 Mar 2008, 06:22

lol go go eDark and Z0ck3rOO7 :D

AverageFreak
12 Mar 2008, 06:40

full agree with sj^. I dont see why they should get punished for something they [u]didnt know[/u] was wrong. I dont see how they tried to punk the community. And even if they knew it was cheating, why did it take the admins so long to undertstand it? Most of you people just go around blindly congratulating admins about catching haxors (probably trying to win some respect). They really do a great job, but cant you people think for yourselves? Mr. Jumper... there was no rule => no need for a ban. finally, gj admins for making a new rule.

мιssιoи›
12 Mar 2008, 06:46

wtf ? flaip... :( gj eDark & Z0ck3r

Scary Tournament #2
12 Mar 2008, 07:35

Lol I first read something about eDark, Z0ck3r and illegal demo. Shit dude, I thought Z0ck3r got busted haha!

Pf0llz0r mapper
12 Mar 2008, 07:37

sj^ and bl00d_d00d, its common sense that you shouldnt change cvars that gives u advantage.

Supa
12 Mar 2008, 08:04

yeah but when your the only one who has made a 240 lj. there are no checkpoints no stats.. no speed plugins nothing. who would even know ROFL~!

Pf0llz0r mapper
12 Mar 2008, 08:30

well there is still a reason that people changed the cvar, if they knew it didnt do anything they wouldnt have used it. Someone found out that it made longjumping easier and then people started using it, u dont change cvars without a reason...

sj
12 Mar 2008, 08:33

how should you know that it gives an advantage if you play with this since the beginning? and the advantage is so small and not really noticeable. i wouldnt see any difference if i change my sidespeed except that the prestrafe is a bit different.

akkord mapper
12 Mar 2008, 08:48

already -5 and its just the upper list of records

ody
12 Mar 2008, 09:03

gj eDark and Z0ck3rOO7

xell-pYq
12 Mar 2008, 10:09

GJ eDark and Z0ck3rOO7! now there are only 5 in 254 lj rec!!ha ha !

trb
12 Mar 2008, 10:24

half agree with sj^ :) i think it's exactelly the right way, to warn this user and don't ban. because i think the ones which use that sidespeed split into 3 categories. 1. the one which don't even know that they had cl_sidespeed on wrong value (maybe they downloaded a config from another one and thought "hmm this player play in this and this league, so everything should be legal", or even a plugin changed the cvar. not all have the config write protected). i know also from many people which don't even know about the sidespeed command, and therefore have to start cs, make a new game and type then "cl_sidespeed" to look if they have the correct value. for example, when u don't know about the command, and a plugin or so (for example) change it, then u don't recognize that. u don't check your sidespeed value before recording, if you don't even know about this command ;) 2. the one which use it cause they got telled that it is easier for longjumps, and it's not forbidden in the rules (at this time). So they used it and thought it's not forbidden. 3. the one which used it and knew / thought, that it would be illegal. and therefore i think it's okay, that it is just a warning. a ban would be too hard for the ones, which are this people from point 1. because the one from point 1 aren't real cheaters. the ones from point 3 are the REAL cheaters ;) and the problem is, we can't say, which ones used it without knowing, and which ones used it on purpose :/ but anyway, it was good that this whole thing with sidespeed happened, because eDark after this thing, a new "security gap" in fps death will be fixed :)

radon mapper Tournament #3
12 Mar 2008, 11:13

kinda cool otchetcho went crazy and did 257 with sidespeed... cause if he didnt do that, we wouldnt have looked more into it. and found even more who used it ^^ gj edark and z0cker

pRopaaNS mapper
12 Mar 2008, 11:19

gL to bust all other cheaters! :D thanx... :>

rupo
12 Mar 2008, 11:24

gj

KNiFEAR
12 Mar 2008, 11:40

hmm unlucky flaip:D do new demo pls:D atleast at kz ljs2:D

beuhnoix
12 Mar 2008, 12:08

gj xj.

kuttaja
12 Mar 2008, 12:39

sj^bl00d_d00d supa WORD! Not forbidden (and they didn't know about it) -> no warning/ban

DucK
12 Mar 2008, 13:08

gj faker

faker mapper
12 Mar 2008, 13:13

To all the flamers: The purpose of the XJ world record section is to provide a place where people can compete and try to perform the best results, on a FAIR basis. The rules are a guideline and remind you to play fair and don't use any secret 1337 h4X_0R settings that might give you an unfair advantage. Admins are humans, too. It's impossible to know about every single command that gives people an advantage. You had to be GOD of Counter-Strike to know every single one, and that's IMPOSSIBLE. Therefore the rules are what they are, a guideline. If people decide to go in their dark 1337 chamber and looking for tweaks (sidespeed) or h4x (slowmo) to get a lame advantage, YES, they deserve a fucking WARNING cause they tryed to fool both, the admins and the other FAIR jumpers. btw... Try to see it through our eyes: Since we've learned about the whole sidespeed thing it took eDark several hours to improve FPS DEath, and even more hours for the demo admins to check ALL the demos, just to provide a FAIR and authentic RECORD list FOR _____YOU_____ Just my 2 cents. +6 for me [size=7]*joke* ;>[/size]

Judah
12 Mar 2008, 13:21

Word faker.

NiconeN
12 Mar 2008, 13:35

hahahah fucking retarded flamers. never heard of any of those who got busted except flaip. since i know him like 1,5 years and talk with him every day i can say honestly that he is not a person who wants to cheat. anyways he still pwns all of you and he has done 254 on block at t3d's server, with normal settings. as far as i know he didnt know the advantage of sidespeed just like none of us did. but very good job eDark! and zockeroot ofc for finding this :) ^^ :D xD :P

akM
12 Mar 2008, 13:37

if u start your own lan, for the very first time the settings would be default right, so how can u jump with 2xx at the beginning? Ppl must have changed something FOSHO.

joel
12 Mar 2008, 13:52

flaip?? .

cC|Nikolaa
12 Mar 2008, 14:39

lol ....

boom.dll
12 Mar 2008, 14:44

ITS A FUCKIN CLIENT COMMAND! u shouldn`t even be allowed to change ur fucking sensitivity.... thats a client command also isn`t it? jesus christ ... noob flamers

insen mapper
12 Mar 2008, 16:00

when i read this i simply have to puke i dont know the exact circumstances but he (especially flaip) recorded the demo before a rule against this has been written u cannot accuse or punish somebody for something which is allowed at the moment when he or she did it even if its not allowed at a later moment the only thing u can do is deleting this demo coz it cannot stand the current rules even if somebody know that such commands give you an avantage u cannot blame somebody because its not forbidden all these fucking flame comments show me that most of the ppl here are not really able to judge or assess a problem or something like that quite pitty

dqx
12 Mar 2008, 16:25

Delete those demos and that's it. They didn't know ? too bad for them they have to jump without it now. They did know ? they tried to punk everyone now their demos are delete. But i mean do we really care about if they need a warning or not ? cause anyway a warning .. It's the thing which tell you : you did something wrong do not do it again. We don't care if they knew or not, the thing is that they have to don't do it again.

bkZ|psh
12 Mar 2008, 17:06

who the fock is flaip

NiconeN
12 Mar 2008, 17:17

bkZ|psh who the fuck are you? : )

flaip
12 Mar 2008, 17:26

Nico..no.. _BKZ_psh who the fuck are you? as NiconeN said I didnt know that changing sidespeed was illegal and when I heard it I told thopa that I had used different sidespeed. Anyway I don't care what because I know I can do 254, I have already done 254 on block with "legal" configs and thats good enough for me. :)

flaip
12 Mar 2008, 17:32

Mentalo: [blockquote]lol they didnt use standardsettings so they are fucking cheater noobs nothing more![/blockquote] Get a life retarded geek, and do you use standard settings like sensitivity? Don't answer, I won't read it.

boom.dll
12 Mar 2008, 17:34

word flaip, and enough of this shit... LJ`ing got enough attention for 2 days... this only makes it grow bigger...

Judah
12 Mar 2008, 17:38

Chill flaip :). Not him or us that made the mistake, it was you. Not flaming you, but you should take responsibilty for what you've done ..

flaip
12 Mar 2008, 17:45

That night when I was trying 254 on my own lan srv, I found it was easier to get 270+ pre with different sidespeed. Then I searched was it mentioned in there sites before I kept on jumping, well it wasnt :) Judah and everyone else I'm sorry that I dissappointed you in [b]some pc game.[/b] You should know that this is only a game, its not that serious :)

fisu
12 Mar 2008, 18:08

My demos in top 254 cj ? delete ? :/

sc0utter
12 Mar 2008, 18:29

It's right that those demos were deleted but why are you blaming those players cheaters because cl_sidespeed wasn't mentioned in the sites/rules before? Judah, demomakers didn't make any mistake in my eyes, actually you did a mistake for joining this conversation with such a ridiculous comment. And word to NiconeN, maybe I'm in flaips side in this shit but have to agree that he would never do bad even a bee, so I just couldn't believe that he would cheat just for fun orso.. Yeah, if I were on that list (not possible, not jumpin'GG anymore), i wouldn't feel guilty or anything for such a thing.

Gargoyle
12 Mar 2008, 18:52

Gj faker, Z0ck3r and eDark and all the admins. Flamers stop using fuck and noobs so often, its irritating. Mentalo pls stop partisipating in comments...

ZombY^_-
12 Mar 2008, 19:39

flaip would never cheat so others who say shit about him : "GET BED"

Bla^
12 Mar 2008, 19:49

Cheaters.. How about changing the topic to something like new demo rule->some demos deleted...Calling them cheaters isn't quite right :(

Trickster
12 Mar 2008, 19:52

this is so ridicilous... what the fuck is wrong with you guys? like kz is your life :E Sidespeed WAS NOT, you heard? WAS NOT mentioned in rules before, so why would they get banned? i dont even understand why they got warned. -1 to admins, not to players. i understand that admins are human ofc ofc, but the warning was wrong. and to those asslickers,, "gj busting cheaters" ... stfu and think about it, even a secound.

s1gh
12 Mar 2008, 20:35

To be honest - I don't give a crap about LJ records. I don't care, and I would have never responded to this, but I just have to say something to the XJ admins: faker, thopa, juhmp, eDark, and whoever else - whether some people like it or not, you are running this community. You guys decide, and you guys get the last word. This isn't a democracy, boohoo. Once you guys see that these comments get completely out of hand, do yourselves a favor and "punish" the community by removing the damned comment function. Remove it for a week, and then maybe people will learn not to convey their opinion by swearing, repeating arguments, and childish accusations. I would kind of understand, or even bother to read, constructive comments and suggestions. However, this repeating bullshit arguments don't do anyone any good - the decision has been made and it's final. So again, do yourselves a favor, and next time - lock the comments.

Gargoyle
12 Mar 2008, 21:18

Trickster if you are referring to my comment, my point wasnt to lick their ass and mean: gj busting cheaters, I ment that they are doing great job fixing and working on these things, cant really say fuck you to eDark or any one else when they are working hard to actually do these things for the benefit of us. Trickster I aggree with you that the warning isnt fair only obeying the rules, but if you use common sense and think for a while "+1-2 units more with a client command, I wonder if I should ask if this IS allowed" atleast mention it that you have found a command to give you advantage. PS. KZ being a life for someones has nothing to do with this.

-Cast0rrrrr-
12 Mar 2008, 21:38

word Bla^ & sj & zomby & sc0utter and others :) ............

-Cast0rrrrr-
12 Mar 2008, 21:51

ITS A FUCKIN CLIENT COMMAND! u shouldn`t even be allowed to change ur fucking sensitivity.... thats a client command also isn`t it? jesus christ ... noob flamers ===================== so real :) ..... i said that too .. sensitivity maybe give's you more maxspeed or something like that if u got 20 o 15 and not 4 o 5, who knows, or acceleration and others, cmooooooooon..... new rule ? "only sensitivity 5 or less is allowed for records ^.^!" THEY ARE ___NOT____ CHEATERS......

.doer!
12 Mar 2008, 22:34

definition of "cheater" :D ?

HoHo^
12 Mar 2008, 22:59

AHAHA

akM
13 Mar 2008, 00:31

hoho ftw ! HAHA

faker mapper
13 Mar 2008, 14:55

Cast0r: CLIENT Commands are those commands you use to make your game feel COMFORTABLE, like sensitivity, cl_righthand etc etc. There are a few client commands tho, which give you illegal advantages. That's a difference. If you don't understand that I'm sorry for you... Trickster: Well, it's not our job to write 100% proof for any "h4x" client command that is hidden somewhere in the deepest bugs of the cs engine. It's common sense that everybody should have the same chances and perform under the same conditions, so people should punished that try to gain a lame advantage with those secret "h4x-commands", don't you think? Maybe some of the guys didn't do it on purpose, they didn't think about it as cheating and didn't want to do BAD things, but it's still a way of cheating... No rules on the WHOLE planet can be perfect... But they can be a guideline. P.S: I know flaip is/was a very nice jumper and he can do 254 or maybe 255 without sidespeed, even tho he is on the list. This news isn't meant to blame all the users, just to inform you guys which demos were found and removed.

akM
13 Mar 2008, 15:33

yea faker your right about the client commands, like before you could play with 16 bit, but now u MUST play with 32 bit ( although most of the ppl have smoke sprites online )

flaip
13 Mar 2008, 15:44

I understand approximately why are you forbidding those commands like that even I wouldn't do it myself. I used that command only that time and I didn't write it in my configs because it doesn't help me in normal kz which I prefer.. so I can climb with regular sidespeed so [b] thats not the reason [/b] why I wouldn't forbid it. So there is still one thing I would like to know before I accept the new rule without saying anything against: Is there one and only best sidespeed or depends the gain of this setting about your own climbing style? If there is one and only perfect sidespeed I accecpt the rule change. But if it depends about your climbing style it is just like sensitivity. [b] Is there only one perfect sidespeed and it doesn't depend of your climbing style?[/b] You can forget this if you answered Yes in previous question. "Updated eDarks quote, and oTcHeTo's jump length with regular settings would have been 254.791." How long would that be with regular cs sensitivity? But as I have said I dont care so much about legal/illegal thing so the main point: I dont like to be known as a cheater cause I used some command which hasn't mentioned in the sites before. How are we supposed to know that it [b] will come [/b] illegal in the future? I think there is something in the rules which says like this: "using commands giving you an advange is unlegal." For example cl_righthand allows you to see the lj block better depending left/right pre of course. But thats the same idea. You know what I mean. [blockquote] This news isn't meant to blame all the users, just to inform you guys which demos were found and removed. [/blockquote] Well... I think the better way of do that is write a news like this: "Removed demos cause different sidespeed." Cheater term is not maybe the best way to tell that. And I don't have anything against you (XJ). It's great that there is sites like this where you make decisions to make a better kz in the future. Peace :)

flaip
13 Mar 2008, 15:49

That post is a bit confused sorry for that. Didn't read it through cause there is so small box :D

Mehz
13 Mar 2008, 15:57

WE STILL LOVE YOU FLAIP.

flaip
13 Mar 2008, 16:01

Still got something to say. There's one thing that is pissing me off more than these things in kz-world. The cheater term causes that: I don't like that some people querys me and blame me in IRC which I'm using to contact my irl friends and so on, not only virtual world. Sorry for spamming and flaming but I think its my turn to say something now. I have been 3-4 years in kz world and I've posted only couple posts here. Now I'm warmed up so I wouldnt like to stop posting these shitty posts now :D

dem-_-
13 Mar 2008, 16:30

I got nothing else to say than agreed fl ;p

mussy
13 Mar 2008, 17:43

hmmm, how about airacceleration? is it legal to turn it off or not? because without airacc U can control ur strafes better, so U gets great advantage against those, who dont turned it off ...

hybrid
13 Mar 2008, 17:48

word sj^

Arokh
14 Mar 2008, 09:53

Faker, you said "This news isn't meant to blame all the users, just to inform you guys which demos were found and removed." But the title of the news post is "First list of cl_sidespeed cheaters." Right there that title says everybody listed knew exactly what the sidespeed value did, knew they were doing something illegal and posted their demo anyway.Which is far from true. And you guys know it. Now your punishing the people who changed their values because you guys didn't know until now what cl_sidespeed did. And i'm not talking about the warning. It's great you guys are cracking down on all the demos that have this error'd value. BUT you arn't just warning them, you're essentially making a news post to tell every single XJ member out there that everybody you listed is a bad bad person. And now you can easily see the extra harm you are doing to them by reading alot of the other posts here. Their rep will be tarnished just as badly as they would have been had they cheated with a bhop script or something. So I would reccomend from now on you just send a personal PM to the "cheaters" warning them and leave the public humiliation to people who do it after you listed it in the rules. Because i know people like falip don't deserve the shit that's being thrown at them now. To everybody else who went straight to calling these people dirty rotten cheaters. You're all a bunch of fucking idiots.

Supa
14 Mar 2008, 16:08

just make a list of client commands you can change and put them in the rules :D. (sens. etc). <3 flaip <3 Niconnen

mussy
14 Mar 2008, 18:05

Actually, sidespeed wasn`t a cheat, since it became a rule to do not change the default value. Its a client command, and everybody could change it as they wish at any server. Only reason I can see, is that most people of ljtop didnt change sidespeed (maybe they didnt know the effect of this cvar) and also most people of the list became inactive. If that cvar became legal it would be unfair in relation to them. Thats the only reason which i can see. But I wouldn`t call Dmitrich and the ohers "cheaters".

mussy
14 Mar 2008, 18:23

By the way, what about climb maps records? This rule of "sidespeed" deals only with ljrecords all it touch on climb recs to? It looks like the witch-hunt season is opened