Questionable WR Runs
Hello everybody
kz_6fd_volcano is one of my favourite maps and I can do a good time on it by now. Lately I wanted to see how a pro does this map and I downloaded the wr run of rad. The "Record Demo" section said 01:07 time. I thought this must be some super amazing run because the volcano rock is kinda big. I've started the demo and I was like "wtf?". He straight runs to the bonus stage, goes outside and jumps from ca. 1000m with some uberstrafes down to the rock. He skipped 2/3 of the map and just did the last part. I was really disapointed and I have to say that was cheap! I was excited to see a good WR run of a 1337-kreedzer but instead I didn't even get half of it. Nothing against rad, he sure is a good kreedzer, but I think it's lame to abuse a coincidence like that. Even more I'm surprised that the admins accepted this demo.
XJ always claims to be the official kreedz community. The rules are so strong everywhere: longjumping, mapping, video projects and most of all the world record runs. I don't know but accepting a demo that abuses a coincidence doesn't seem very "official" to me. If you take a look at the olympics, the sportswomen/men can't just run over the field at 5000 metres because it's shorter (d'oh! lol). I also don't think that these extreme short cuts where intended by the mapper. There are alot similar short cuts in other wr runs but that kz_6fd_volcano one really dissapointed me, enough to start this thread. My opinion.
What do you think about that?
Greetings
kind of stupid to compare a shortcut to olympics
There are more than a hundred official XJ maps where the mapper did not intend to put shortcuts but eventually one or the other kreedzer managed to find one. Dont you think the kreedzer should get some credit for finding it...
What you call "coincidence" is known to everybody and is open to everyone to be challenged. I dont see anything wrong or partial about that.
And as far as the XJ rules are concerned, it never forbid any kreedzer to make use of shortcuts which are legal irrespective of the fact that whether or not they are coincidental.
Lemme illustrate with an example... Lets take the demo kz_cg_wigbl0ck_spr1n_0214.91. You'd see he does 3 jumpbugs in the run. Dont you think its coincidence (ofc spr1n is pr0 with jb's but am sure even he did it after quite a lot of tries). Here he didn't even use sc's like the one you mentioned and neither did the mapper intend to do so.
All I want to say is, it is true some sc's ruin the map and take the fun out of playing the entire map as the mapper intended to, but finding new sc's and applying them in a run is what distinguishes the pr0 from the average crowd. Also, I think mappers, nowadays, are pretty well-aware of their maps not including ridiculous sc's which saves huge chunks of time.
So, dont get disappointed, rad is an excellent kreedzer. Watch some other demos of him. And am sure, someday you'd end up making a WR with a "coincidental" shortcut and laugh at it :D
you saw a run of a 1337 kreedzer, try the sc and you will see that its very diffuclt if you are not a imba player..!
im sure the author of the map doesnt like the sc because you skip the half map, but as kreedzer you have to finish as fast as you can, all the other stuff isnt that important.
I recommend you to watch kzno_xtremeblock demo to see what is actually a retarded sc. I mean, seriously guys, jumping from the end of the map before you even started a timer... It should look like - start the timer > climb up > jump down > climb up using this sc > finish. So basicly it's 2x longer run, lol. I prefer watching demos with t3d's sc.
About volcano... Atleast the climber pressed start button before actually climbing :> Let me tell you what I do, if I like the map but it has a huge shortcut I simply not using it and enjoying the full map. If the map with big sc is crap, ofc I will use the sc to finish that map faster :D Unless you'd like to parcitipate for a wr, then you have to use whatever advantage you can to win some seconds. Basicly most of shortcuts are mapper's fault.
"If you take a look at the olympics,"
LoL
04/10/2010 16:56Originally posted by kunqui"If you take a look at the olympics,"
LoL
Dumbest thread ever, shortcuts make kz exciting and fun. Gets boring to see the same old maps being beated by one second every month. And seriously, every single world record got a skip or an sc, it's about getting from the start button to the end button as fast as possible without using any plugins to help you.
Since I'm more of a trickjumper than a kreedzer I even enjoy scs more than the runs.
lol made my evening
Originally posted by qewiDumbest thread ever, shortcuts make kz exciting and fun. Gets boring to see the same old maps being beated by one second every month. And seriously, every single world record got a skip or an sc, it's about getting from the start button to the end button as fast as possible without using any plugins to help you.
Since I'm more of a trickjumper than a kreedzer I even enjoy scs more than the runs.
u has zeh epic sc wr!
Originally posted by A3T!U$`There are more than a hundred official XJ maps where the mapper did not intend to put shortcuts but eventually one or the other kreedzer managed to find one. Dont you think the kreedzer should get some credit for finding it...
What you call "coincidence" is known to everybody and is open to everyone to be challenged. I dont see anything wrong or partial about that.
And as far as the XJ rules are concerned, it never forbid any kreedzer to make use of shortcuts which are legal irrespective of the fact that whether or not they are coincidental.
Lemme illustrate with an example... Lets take the demo kz_cg_wigbl0ck_spr1n_0214.91. You'd see he does 3 jumpbugs in the run. Dont you think its coincidence (ofc spr1n is pr0 with jb's but am sure even he did it after quite a lot of tries). Here he didn't even use sc's like the one you mentioned and neither did the mapper intend to do so.
All I want to say is, it is true some sc's ruin the map and take the fun out of playing the entire map as the mapper intended to, but finding new sc's and applying them in a run is what distinguishes the pr0 from the average crowd. Also, I think mappers, nowadays, are pretty well-aware of their maps not including ridiculous sc's which saves huge chunks of time.
So, dont get disappointed, rad is an excellent kreedzer. Watch some other demos of him. And am sure, someday you'd end up making a WR with a "coincidental" shortcut and laugh at it :D
Originally posted by lukeeZyou saw a run of a 1337 kreedzer, try the sc and you will see that its very diffuclt if you are not a imba player..!
im sure the author of the map doesnt like the sc because you skip the half map, but as kreedzer you have to finish as fast as you can, all the other stuff isnt that important.
I agree with you there. I think it's a pitty though that it's mostly all about how fast you can finish a map. When I started to kreedz I was having fun climbing up maps and enjoyed their atmosphere (I still do). But when you join a serious kz server you really get under pressure by those players that always type "/wr" and try to beat the time then. I get the feeling it's all about competition, not about fun.
I made the olympic reference because everybody has to follow the same route and it all matters about the best time. A few miliseconds decide if you're #1 or #2 and that's where the intresting part starts for me. It's the same as on LJ, HJ, CJ etc. records – everbody has to jump off the same blocks but a few decimals decide if you hold the WR or not. It's all about the better technique! That's why I love bkz_goldbhop for example. There is no such extreme sc that gives you a huge advantage, so that even if you wasn't the best bhopper you still could beat the wr. If you look here http://xtreme-jumps.eu/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?236476.0 they are discussing if it's possible to beat the world record by a few seconds. It's a neck-and-neck race and that's pure suspense to me! Finding new sc to save some time is good but it's not as suspense as a neck-and-neck race. My opinion.
That's just how some maps are, you should get used to it.
XJ has always had maps like this, can't believe you are now realizing this. Of course it's the official kreedz community, how can you say it's not.
[+md] [-md] will be nice i think.
ofc i don't say about maps when jumper need JB EB to have a good time like wigblock
Originally posted by go0dfell[+md] [-md] will be nice i think.
nice idea there, same rules could be added to axn bhop maps as well. would like to see full runs there.
A speedrun means to do something in the lowest possible amount of time, while still sticking to the rules. If there is no rule against the shortcut, you'll just have to deal with it. Comparing it to the olympics is more than stupid, there's so much difference between the olympics and a video game that it's not even comparable imo.
And no matter if a shortcut were intended by the mapper or not, it's still entertaining to both watch and find the shortcuts, so disallowing them makes no sense at all.
you always say Greetings in the end of your post/thread :D its cool
Haha, out of pure politeness :D
Greetings
you know... the link, whatever's on there, is preserved by you quoting it.
All I have to say is go watch zyllEE at bkz_wallblock! Now that´s some pro ass SC that basicaly made the map look like crap XD
07/10/2010 01:07(edited 07/10/2010 01:11)Originally posted by jack frogXJ always claims to be the official kreedz community.
You can't "claim" that, stuff like that is developed and appointed over years; in this case we got appointed as official Kreedz community by Kreedz (the inventor of Kreedz/1.6 climbmaps) himself, when kzmaps and XJ merged back then.
So we do not just claim that, we obviously are.
/ontopic:
You got to understand and see that, for the majority of the people, the biggest fascinaiton in the world of kreedz maps is to beat the maps as fast as possible; and not to do every single jump in the whole map as fast as possible... and the rules were made accordingly.
To achieve that (skipping the map as fast as possible) even new techniques were developed/found by simply trying crazy stuff (like that shortcut) for 100 or 1000 times until it worked one time. This way we did learn more about the counter-strikeengine and its bugs/features than we ever thought btw.
The mentioned map kz_6fd_volcano and its shortcut is even done with such a new technique, the duckbug (check the kreedz tutorial for more info: http://xtreme-jumps.eu/page.php?59), so I can't see how you can say it's a lame one.... It's actually very unique and challenging to do; even more challenging than a normal run with all bhops and good transistions.
Also it would be pretty much impossible to have a rule set for every single map and shortcut in it. By the time all shortcuts are found and documented new ones would have been found already again.
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