[Tutorial] How Different Frame Rates Affect Y
27/04/2011 20:13(edited 28/04/2011 01:01)Hello everyone,
may some of you still know me, but well that ain’t the deal here.
I have to say I’m really disappointed by many movie makers. Why is that so?
Well it’s not about the movies itself but the fact, that many of them ain’t seem to know what different frame rates actually do.
I made two simple movies. What do they contain?
I chose a world record. It is “cg_coldbhop_v2â€. The current record holder is Chasquido. I chose that demo because he has a unique style. It is fast paced and really fits into what I want to show/explain you.
The first movie shows you two different frame rates.
The first scene is captured with 30 fps and rendered with 30 fps.
The second scene is captured with 120 fps and rendered with 30 fps
The second movie only shows you one frame rate.
The scene is captured with 120 fps like in the first movie but is rendered with 60 fps.(too lazy to capture 60 and 240 fps since my pc isn’t the newest which results in 120 too less fps for the ¼ slowmo)
In each scene are two different slowmos, ½ and ¼.
the movie is only made to show you the meaning of frame rates and nothing more
Well you have the intel - now it is time to watch the movies(read the rest when you did that).
Movie 1:
https://rapidshare.com/files/459461346/1.avi
Movie 2:
https://rapidshare.com/files/459464047/2.avi
I hope you watched the movies. What did you see?
The first scene of the first movie is not really blurred but also has not a good flow.
The second scene instead has many blurred sections. You can also say everything is blurred when the player moves. I hope you understand what I want to tell you with that.
The higher the difference between the capturing frame rate and the rendering frame rate is the more washy the result will be. Why is that so? Well I can’t really answer that because I’m not that hard into that topic but I have an assumption. If the frames rates are 30/30 than every rendering frame has a captured frame. If the frame rate is 120/30 than every rendering frame has 4 captured frames which results in too many pictures. That phenomenon let you see more frames in only one picture. To make you understand what I mean I made a screenshot.
http://www.abload.de/img/snapkp3r.png
https://rapidshare.com/files/459464389/snap.png
Just a hint: When you are planning slowmos then you sould capture that specific scene with a different frame rate.
Alright fellas, I hope I could help some of you and I would appreciate it if at least the ROTW’s will have acceptable frame rates in the future.
Straight Facts for Beginners:
-As you can see in the samples 30 fps doesnt look as smooth as 120 fps(rendering frame rate 30).
-The problem is that the higher the capturing frame rate the washier your movie will be (see screenshot)
-To solve this problem you should double your rendering frame rate which means you should chose 50(double pal) or 60(double ntsc).
-A clear disadvantage of higher rendering frame rates is that your computer must be better else the movie will lag
-Since 60 fps are sorta smooth I can recommend that
-I also recommend a capturing frame rate that is twice as big as the rendering frame rate which results in 120 coz I just said higher rendering frame rates will cause lags(depends on your computer)
-That rule apply when the speed is 1. when the speed is 1/2 then you need 240 to double 120. when the speed is 1/4 then you need 480 to double 240 and so on
Hard work for a shit, no one who doesnt know the difference in fps will read this when he sees how big it is -.-'.
Originally posted by IceVipHard work for a shit, no one who doesnt know the difference in fps will read this when he sees how big it is -.-'.
I tried to understand what ur saying, but i dont get it.
What do you say is big? the movie? the files postet here? Please write in more details..
27/04/2011 20:49I know what you want to say but you should definitely improve your english especially when you wanna flame.
we live in 2011 bro. its not necessary to decrease the filesize like hell. I could decrease the filesize for sure without losing quality but rendering both movies costs me more than one hour without doing anything whilst the process.
and like I said its not about such stuff but the frame rate
better improve your own movies before you flame about useful tutorials. see what I did here?
Originally posted by smallmuckOriginally posted by IceVipHard work for a shit, no one who doesnt know the difference in fps will read this when he sees how big it is -.-'.
I tried to understand what ur saying, but i dont get it.
What do you say is big? the movie? the files postet here? Please write in more details..
people who don't know what is the difference wont read a shit of this thread they will just click on the dll links. so what im saying is "hard work for nothing".
As a moviemaker, I could give few tips with FPS.
for less than 5 minutes movies, use 600 fps capture and 30 fps output for stream. You can render a 60 fps version too for download, if you want to.
For longer movies, 300 fps is enough, because with 600 fps you may run out of HDD or patience.
When capturing fragmovies, usually 150 or 120 is enough, esp. when you have large project.
600 fps or even 900 fps and 30 fps with good codec and bitrate are the most ideal fps' to YouTube.
Any serious kreedz moviemaker shouldn't think capturing with values under 300.
27/04/2011 22:07tell me why do you use, lets say, 600?
its total bullshit imo
give me some good reasons plz
Originally posted by insentell me why do you use, lets say, 600?
its total bullshit imo
give me some good reasons plz
Under 600 just usually looks terrible. And it gives oppoturnities for like slowing the video down. You must remember if you slow the clip down to 50% it's always half out from the source fps. Since many moviemakers use much velocity changes, it's so useful compared to 1/2x speed capture in hlae for every clip you would possible want to slow down and keep the frame rate same.
There are many movies even with 300 fps, which fps in slowmotions and even in normal speed looks pretty bad. I don't know can you see the difference (since you don't work much with video?), but it's very clear. And since I wan't my movies out without lag on YouTube, I use 30 fps, and that must match with the source fps. It must be like 150, 180, 210, 240, 270, 300, 600. Like you well know if you are into this subject.
But what I have said is for pretty much perfect frame rate for kreedz movies, I don't much care about what is "usually needed" to make a decent movie. If somebody does't want any complains about framerate, and wants totally smooth video, he should use like 600. And of course more is better, it's just matter of patience and HDD. I would use fosho 900 fps with high sampling if I would have any more patience than now.
But anyways, these facts aren't close to bullshit, I'm sorry if you can't see the difference with your eyes :/
27/04/2011 23:58(edited 28/04/2011 00:04)you know I made quite some movies back in time? Your xj account didn't even exist at that time.
I simply wasnt an admin and xj never released movies by non-admins some years ago
did you even watch my samples?
cant you see the disadvantage of high capturing frame rates?
to some point you are inconsistent with yourself. you can capture with 60000 fps(yeah a 6 with four zeros). the movie wont be smoother, simply more washy. you have to increase your rendering fps to make it smoother
and yeah you are right. its more comfortable when you work with slowmos but normally you should take the time and capture that specific scenes again to get the best result
to summarize your thoughts: the only thing you said is that its more comfortable when using slowmos. thats a fact.
but that its smoother aint a fact since I disproved it with my samples. maybe you mean something different with smooth idk
a good way would be to capture every scene two times. the first time for normal speed scenes and the second time for slowmos. its a lot of work but thats how making movies is.
ps: I see the differences between the frame rates 30/30 is utter shit but so is 120+/30
I definitely prefer double pal or double ntsc with a doubled capturing frame rate.(and yes thats not the case in my 2nd sample for the slowmo scenes)
Originally posted by insenyou know I made quite some movies back in time? Your xj account didn't even exist at that time.
I simply wasnt an admin and xj never released movies by non-admins some years ago
did you even watch my samples?
cant you see the disadvantage of high capturing frame rates?
to some point you are inconsistent with yourself. you can capture with 60000 fps(yeah a 6 with four zeros). the movie wont be smoother, simply more washy. you have to increase your rendering fps to make it smoother
and yeah you are right. its more comfortable when you work with slowmos but normally you should take the time and capture that specific scenes again to get the best result
to summarize your thoughts: the only thing you said is that its more comfortable when using slowmos. thats a fact.
but that its smoother aint a fact since I disproved it with my samples. maybe you mean something different with smooth idk
a good way would be to capture every scene two times. the first time for normal speed scenes and the second time for slowmos. its a lot of work but thats how making movies is.
ps: I see the differences between the frame rates 30/30 is utter shit but so is 120+/30
I definitely prefer double pal or double ntsc with a doubled capturing frame rate.(and yes thats not the case in my 2nd sample for the slowmo scenes)
Since we cross the line of low frame rates (like in your examples), you can't talk about washy result. You should try capturing like 900 fps the same video, and you will be suprised cause it actually is smooth even with 30 fps output. With your expressions I could say it's totally washy, so it looks like smooth, when we have high fps.
But I'm not denying the fact that the difference of source and output fps makes it worse. SInce our "good" YouTube can't handle even 60fps videos well (when source fps is high), we have little problem. Of course 600 source and 600 output is the best option I could have for download file, if my PC could run it smoothly! :) That's why I make/could make 60 fps downloads avalaible. You are absolutely right in that, but since most of (at least newer) moviemakers wants good result to their main source of views, YouTube, that's why I talked a bit offtopic and maybe confused you.
But like you mentioned too, we can have little different visions of smooth video. I understand the expression washy, simply 30 fps with 30 fps isn't washy at all, but I don't like the smoothness-level if you know what I mean. :-)
jusuuh
28/04/2011 00:29yeah thats right
30 fps doesnt look as smooth as 120 fps with the same render frame rate
but yeah my problem is that washy/blurry effect with higher fps
good to know never used youtube. I prefer downloads especially for complicated movies that you definitely have coz of the movement.
and no I wont capture with 600 frames :D
the scene is 1 min long and when I typed in startmovie 120fpstest 120 I went to the terrace and smoked a cig. when I came back only about 45 sec of that 1 min was captured. so you can imagine my pc isnt the best :D
My main purpose with this tutorial is simply to explain how different frame rates affect the movie. thats all you know. the higher the smoother but also washier.
increasing the render frame rate is the only solution to avoid that effect. but then you need a better pc. back in time I released Scooter - Bulgarian power with double pal. Quite some people were not able to watch it. But nowadays double pal/double ntsc should be possible for the majority
Originally posted by insenyeah thats right
30 fps doesnt look as smooth as 120 fps with the same render frame rate
but yeah my problem is that washy/blurry effect with higher fps
good to know never used youtube. I prefer downloads especially for complicated movies that you definitely have coz of the movement.
and no I wont capture with 600 frames :D
the scene is 1 min long and when I typed in startmovie 120fpstest 120 I went to the terrace and smoked a cig. when I came back only about 45 sec of that 1 min was captured. so you can imagine my pc isnt the best :D
My main purpose with this tutorial is simply to explain how different frame rates affect the movie. thats all you know. the higher the smoother but also washier.
increasing the render frame rate is the only solution to avoid that effect. but then you need a better pc. back in time I released Scooter - Bulgarian power with double pal. Quite some people were not able to watch it. But nowadays double pal/double ntsc should be possible for the majority
Hah, I can capture 1 min ingame time with 600 fps about in 7-8 minutes.. So when doing kz movie it doesn't take many seconds to capture one trick :p
28/04/2011 01:11poor me =(
edited the first post to make some facts clearer
hope you agree with it
Originally posted by insenpoor me =(
edited the first post to make some facts clearer
hope you agree with it
[blockquote]-That rule apply when the speed is 1. when the speed is 1/2 then you need 240 to double 120. when the speed is 1/4 then you need 480 to double 240 and so on[/blockquote]
What do you mean by that? When slowing the video down, it automaticly sets the right fps.
- If you capture the video with source fps 300 and video slowed down to 1/2x speed, it's as good result as if you would capture 600 fps and slow it down at vegas. So never need to change capture fps when thinking about slowdown's, if I know that I'll make very fast campath now and gonna slow it down at vegas, I might still capture it in 1/2x speed even tho 600 fps is flexible to that speed with good frame rate.
But well, other ways informative post now. :)
28/04/2011 13:17it was simply to make it clearer how much frames you will need when you slow down to a specific degree to get the same result for every scene
like I said some posts above
it would be better to capture more than one time with different frame rates for slowmos
I dont know how the video will actually look with 600 fps whilst using 60 fps for rendering since the output is much smoother and sharp from the beginning
would be interesting to see the same clip as mine with 600/60 but like I said I would die due to boredom :D
http://www.hhg-clan.de/hlae/wiki/index.php?title=Sampling_System
too bad i havnt seen this thread, actually very interesting topic.
the "washy" "blurry" effect you witness insen, is indeed something (usually) desirable called "motion blur", a thingy most moviemakers might know as fx, but which is happening everytime you decrease the framrate of a high-fps'd footage by rendering it to a "normal" ouputrate... 30fps for example (just as explained with the "4-pictures-in-1" example in the first post)
that you think it's less smooth or rather bad looking is caused by your motion-aesthetics for cs movies, which were formed a long time ago, when high fps capturing was something quite futuristic. i'm sure what is making you feel comfortable here is just what your personally used to... if 90% of the people would render to 40fps we would feel very awkward when watching a 30fps movie ect. - you get my point i guess.
so just as jusuuh i usually advice people to use a very high ammount of fps, simply because i like the motionfeeling of it. a quite extreme example: a test i made when i started to work on BRIAN3,
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/30014728/colour_test.avi
1200fps rendered to 30
later i discovered i can get a similiar and even better result by simply using HLAE's sample-function, thanks god...
anyways the in & out fps, aswell as some render options extremly influence your final result as you correctly pointed out. i'd just say it is highly subjective, and except laggy shit there is not rly a "good" or "bad" here.
for example village used a quite high fps rate for Canvas, but disabled the motionblending when rendering. see the result, very interesting and fresh feeling, mainly because of what i just said:
http://www.own3d.tv/video/16198/Canvas
even Fraps is leading to a very interesting and different result, i remember i captured Tiehjay The Movie with Fraps on 1/4 speed with 50fps, and speed up everything later. turned out to have a very unique motion style ive never experienced again.
http://www.sk-gaming.com/video/123812-TiehJay_The_Movie
long text short meaning, i dont think it is something to argue about, its like your favorite food or colour or dancemove... but it is a interesting, underestimated topic
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