I apologize to Kreedz
We changed, time has changed. Nothing from the original kz breath is present anymore. It's like the past is forgotten.
From general behavior within community, to mapping systems and map acceptance, demos, cheats, hatred, everything changed.
I'm not that naive to believe that things don't change. They do. But this community changed into another community. Here is no longer pure kreedz. Just some attempts here and there, like a drawning man who tries to reach the surface. Sometimes you see him and sometimes not.
No one complained in the past about the kz requirements being too high. We didn't change them, not even a bit, till then and now. Have you ever thought what caused this gap?
Easy, we caused this gap by hugely delimitating kz tag from custom tag. We made seperate forums, we made different accepting systems for each category, we told them what requirements should have each of the category, and this way, they could easily go for any category that they would have wanted. It's like they had to make a choice "uhm? what kind of map should I make? Uh, I know, custom, because it's easier. I just have to focus on jumps". thing which in my opinion is plain stupid and totally contrary to what Kreedz himself tried to make with this mode.
Do I have to remind you that Kreedz himself never intended to make two "earth-space" seperate categories? kz and custom? lol. There were only kz maps, maps made with the purpose of enjoying the height, jumps, environment, making the thrill from real life climbing, into a game. Easy. Nothing sophisticated. We turned it upside down and honestly we should be ashamed of this, of ruining his ideas.
It's like we devided this whole game into sides. Kz, custom and now LJ.
Same thing happened with LJ. We talked so much about it, taking it into particular, we placed it in the corner, we tried to forget about it, we tried not to give so much importance to it, but by doing all these things, we seperated it from the game, transforming it into a stand-alone thing, giving it a face and a shape. Originally this was never intended.
Do I have to remind you that Ljs were created with the intention of doing something fun and different after you finished a map? Of taking off the "pain" of climbing? Just to feel free of doing something else?
The intention was never to create another mode within a mode, because that's what it is today. It was so much seperate from kz itself, that people nowadays are referring to it (to lj) as a stand-alone. Everyone is asking nowadays: "your lj rec?" As if this is the ultimate proof of how good you are. In the beginnings people got better at ljs by climbing all the way through the map. Not vice-versa. Ljs were at the end. It was made like this with a reason.
New systems? What are we talking about here? Nonsense! OLD SYSTEM. Let's go back to the roots, to what this game was intended to be. We have no right to alter it.
Everyone who's been here long enough understands. And to everyone of them, I say: We have to moral right to pass and teach the knowledge we have, in order to maintain a stability and passing through the legacy.
However, maybe I'm wrong? Maybe this is the only way we can evolve?
For this, I apologize. I don't know if I created all this, I don't know how much I'm responsible for all this, but I was/am surely part of this. For not being able to offer more, I apologize.
Regards,
CyclopP - community member & admin
Ouuuu man just play a game, yes we should say to kreedz big thanks that he made it all by him self, but I think he is proud about what is in nowadays in this cs mod, it was only his idea but for now its all big community not only one, and about lj's many people like it more then climbing stuff
Originally posted by defusionOuuuu man just play a game, yes we should say to kreedz big thanks that he made it all by him self, but I think he is proud about what is in nowadays in this cs mod, it was only his idea but for now its all big community not only one, and about lj's many people like it more then climbing stuff
you nailed it. (+1)
I agree with him
Very good post. I think you should just make it easier to attain status as an official map. It would not only bring new recorders due to easier ant not polished near perfection wrs but give the community more activity as well. I for one only care about the length of the map, not the aesthetics. This game ia from 10+ years old, I don't care how good it looks. If I would, I would just play Crysis or something.
Totally agree with you Cyclopp! I thought about this as well but I couldn't think of any proper way to form all that in a post, congratz for that too.
I remember back in the days when the servers used to be full and when someone finished the map (no matter for how long, with or without cps) people used to say at least a 'gj'. And that was the time, the time when things used to be fun. I am with you guys!
Originally posted by nobody^Totally agree with you Cyclopp! I thought about this as well but I couldn't think of any proper way to form all that in a post, congratz for that too.
I remember back in the days when the servers used to be full and when someone finished the map (no matter for how long, with or without cps) people used to say at least a 'gj'. And that was the time, the time when things used to be fun. I am with you guys!
"Just climb to the top of the map and boom your sense of accomplishment would be satisfied.Now people are never satisfied until they can longjump 250 or other things."
I hope you know who said this ! ;)
Originally posted by nobody^I remember back in the days when the servers used to be full and when someone finished the map (no matter for how long, with or without cps) people used to say at least a 'gj'. And that was the time, the time when things used to be fun. I am with you guys!
What r u talking about? Where do u play ffs?? There r servers like that(full and ppl not caring about skill)
Kreedz isnt the same as I started with it 3 years ago. Its only lj and bhop in my opinion.
Most of the mappers nowadays only build bhop shit with lj blocks and honestly that sucks.
I never give a shit if someone jump 250 or 256. But for the most here in the forum that means spending 24/7 geeking for 6 units.
geeking years for jumping ~15 centimeters longer than other. no ty.
If its a petition or somehow, you have my sign.
02/06/2012 17:16Although you are mostly right, there are some things you haven't taken in consideration. Yes, I agree that kz scene has been split into various directions, but you must understand that there are people who enjoy not only climbing, but also longjumping. I hope that this post wasn't about the old talk about longjumping as another mod, as longjumping was, is and will be a part of kreedz jumping. It's just the skill that can be ultimately measured - you can longjump everywhere. As for custom and kz - I have to agree on you about this one, but as mapchecker yourself, you should know about this a bit more. If we would accept EVERY SINGLE climbing map as kz, then... oh well, I don't want to see >9000 maps which can be finished in 10 seconds and which have no design elements at all. Therefore we have some standart rules which map passes as official which not. After this, the point, where we divide superb maps and not so superb maps, but with great gameplay, is inevitable. Evolution, so to say.
What I understood from your post is that we go back to basics. I think we are far behind that point of no return.
If you are suggesting merging CC with XJ, then fine, but I don't even want to think about consequences. I don't think that every map should be accepted just because there are some jumps in it.
If you are saying that it is all about fun and jumping, I would say that years ago there were no maps and techniques like today. We just didn't have the tools to build like we can now. And there always will be who enjoy this mod, be it longjumping, hard jump mastering or for stunning graphics on old engine.
I won't even start about advertising and tournaments, where "looks" play a big part of success.
tl;dr
This was inevitable.
I totally agree with everybody !
Pieshels, you got it all wrong. I never said to accept all the maps, to merge xj with cc (my god...).
It's actually the other way around. Custom should not exist. kz_ is kz_. Plain and simple. Everyone has to understand that custom maps (I dont even want to say this word anymore) are the ones to messed up everything. They are the reason why we are talking nowadays about maps requirements.
However, if there was only one type of map, kz and that's it, everything would had ran smoothly. It's like "just build a kz map and after we decide if it's worth of being official or not". So much thinking, so much planing "should I build kz? lj? custom? bhop?". My god, my head is spining already.
Same with "what should I focus on? jumps or looks". My god, on both. A mapper who asks this question is not a mapper.
For the tournament&advertising part, you need both. You need to present to the world, to your potential sponsors your best merchandise.
For me it's logical that both matters. Put yourself on a sponsors' shoes: you see a map with 4 straight walls, and some rocks or whatever hanging from those walls, where you climb. Don't you think that "this is what this game has to offer?
In order to enter on the market, the buyer has to be amazed by your merchandise. That's how things work.
Custom with jumps but no looks, kz tag with no jumps but looks- a no go.
And no one says to build Crysis-like environments. Just make it worth playing through.
Originally posted by guz-.-Originally posted by nobody^I remember back in the days when the servers used to be full and when someone finished the map (no matter for how long, with or without cps) people used to say at least a 'gj'. And that was the time, the time when things used to be fun. I am with you guys!
What r u talking about? Where do u play ffs?? There r servers like that(full and ppl not caring about skill)
I forgot to mention that I was talking about the XJ servers. I used to play there around 07 and it was a 100% different than it's now.
Very nice post kzro`CyclopP!
What always fascinated me about Kreedz was it's own evolution. You see, first there was Half Life, then Counter Strike and then there was Kreedz. Later some players figured out that you can develop Bunny Hop and Long Jump and took it to where it is now. Also there were some people that discovered techniques such as Jump Bug, Edge Bug and Count jump and took Kreedz to a whole new level. Do you think that the developers ever thought about this? Certainly not. And this is what fascinates me so much: the game became totally autonome and went it's own way.
kzro`CyclopP, you sound like you feel regret for all this but I don't think it's that bad. It was predictable with a fast growing community like Xtreme Jumps. You had to set some rules. Personally I think it's good to have high standards for the kz_ tag. This way you can seperate the weak maps from the quality ones.
The only sad thing in my opinion is that the fun factor got lost completely. Like nobody^ said, back in the days people congratulated when you've finished a map, no matter what time or wheter with checkpoints or not. These days you're a "noob" when you don't finish kzno_xtremeblock under 2 minutes or jump atleast 255 units with Long Jump. It's ridicilous and doesn't make fun playing Kreedz anymore. But it was predictable and I wouldn't know how to change it. Best just ignore these kind of gamers that boast up their ego by being "leet" in a computer game and have your fun.
I don't know where all this will go, but everything has it's own process. Also: it's just a game, man!
The fact that we evolved so much, having the potential of becoming one of the most powerful communities in the world, makes me very very happy and gives me a sentiment of fullfilment.
I don't regret that what was once a small part of kz, within kz, like ljs bhop and others, evolved so much that nowadays they have the power to be (and are) stand-alones. How can this make me feel regret?
I only regret that it got to the point where everyone has taken sides, lj side, bhop side, custom side, kz tag side and so on. Like we aren't part of the same family, kreedz. We forgot about what brought us here and we think that now only these sides exist.
We have to remember who and what made us what we are today.
I don't regret nor am I said because in servers nowadays no one is giving me a GJ or moral support. I would be too naive to hope that, because a thing that is evolving and becoming a widely phenomenon can not be controlled to its last movement. It can be controlled in what direction it is going, but the other small details like what happens within all the players, is just the natural flow any community can have and is having.
After i read this post i decided to log-in and tell you Cyclop, i agree with you 100%. Many reasons that you mentioned, made a lot of players quit the game (including me). In my opinion kz is really competitive, losing good and fun moments. (Its time to change this)
Congratulations for the great post!
02/06/2012 23:58(edited 03/06/2012 00:25)Good thought there. You don't have to take it all on yourself, everything we've got now and here would anyway one day reach the same or closely same effect. It's a question of time and perfection. Climbing enormous amount of maps based on same conception would anyway one day bore people therefore cause diversity to the 'mode' which in the end got result of what we have now, in this or another form. If we are positioning XJ as a professional community than it's getting further from fun but closer to a job/business?
i'd like to say something smart right now but i'm kinda drunk. but for me it has always been a game and ive been enjoying it til today. i realized pretty fast that i am not that kind of pro-motherfuckin-sick-bhop-pro but i had at least a freakin good time on several servers either talking bout nonsense or tryin to improve my noob-time...
dont take it as a serious competition and u can still enjoy it.
cheers
03/06/2012 01:48Originally posted by kzro`CyclopPPieshels, you got it all wrong. I never said to accept all the maps, to merge xj with cc (my god...).
It's actually the other way around. Custom should not exist. kz_ is kz_. Plain and simple. Everyone has to understand that custom maps (I dont even want to say this word anymore) are the ones to messed up everything. They are the reason why we are talking nowadays about maps requirements.
However, if there was only one type of map, kz and that's it, everything would had ran smoothly. It's like "just build a kz map and after we decide if it's worth of being official or not". So much thinking, so much planing "should I build kz? lj? custom? bhop?". My god, my head is spining already.
Same with "what should I focus on? jumps or looks". My god, on both. A mapper who asks this question is not a mapper.
For the tournament&advertising part, you need both. You need to present to the world, to your potential sponsors your best merchandise.
For me it's logical that both matters. Put yourself on a sponsors' shoes: you see a map with 4 straight walls, and some rocks or whatever hanging from those walls, where you climb. Don't you think that "this is what this game has to offer?
In order to enter on the market, the buyer has to be amazed by your merchandise. That's how things work.
Custom with jumps but no looks, kz tag with no jumps but looks- a no go.
And no one says to build Crysis-like environments. Just make it worth playing through.
custom maps = simple maps = not for real kreedz atmosphere playing .
its like u play for testing or for nothing for fun for training etc..
and ur right with the mapping thing that mapper is complicated alot when he start building map from start cus he has many ideas in mind , bhop /lj / duck bhop / idk wtf else there are 1000 wj etc .
but the best its just normal KZ . like kz_climbersxp
a long cool map without weird jumps and nice atmosphere,jumps and architectur made by kreedz , thats what we dont see alot in this days.
most of maps are like 5 mins and WR boom ...
why dont make it more interesting and be 15 mins wr and enjoyable map? big long or even short but enjoyable ...
imo ; kz is kz and there shouldnt be a bhop map with kz
i mean kz climb and bhop climb should be different cus bhop its different these days .
i dont know if u understand what i mean .. but i do understand u cus ur absolutely right and we have to DO SOMETHING about it now.
everything changes ... and can change and turn anytime to a good thing.
karli
that's one (gloomy) way to look at it.
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