Spawn ruling
25/08/2018 03:45(edited 25/08/2018 03:50)Since its getting out of control, in the comment section and its easy to lose track of it from the design.
And mostly one or more users doesn't even unstand that it should had been a discussion and not a personal vendetta against one. Even when a inactive admin is involved (you should even know it better that you are reflecting the community)
If you can't discuss this topic properly in a mature state or you want to express how nice addons are, stop wasting the time by posting in here. This is a discussion about it and not to rule out which addon you should take for it.
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I already stated to look it over from multiple perspective but somehow everyone is just not kind enough to think it over. And just telling here are the addons.... Or to have a personal vendetta.
Why are you so aggressive about it when someone is pointing out flawless when a mapper can do it with simple clicks in a few seconds? Even when the technology exists for it but you are missing a point in this.
Why do you want to have serveradmins to have more work? By adding spawn points thru addons when its just simple clicks and copy/past for mappers?
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The user FuZzy1 has just made the point as a direct answer on to my post and got it straight right from another perspective.
[blockquote]I think is the mapper job to make sure the map works well on servers, from xj's point of view even 1 spawn is enough for demo recording.[/blockquote]
If we look it now over:
As a jumper/recordholder or XJ as Recordlisthoster:
You don't care much how many spawnpoints are in the map since you will be mostly jump alone on your own privat lan server.
As a mapper:
You want to have it widely spread and be played. So it should must be playable with the supported goldsource playercount (32 slots). Otherwise it is bad promotion for you map and those negative things will stay in the mind of casual players. They joined a server get the message no spawn slots available and are staying in spectator for a short time. Since this is negative for the casual player he might not pick your map up again.
For a serveradmin:
If you are a lone wolf or wants to have fun with a few friends. They don't care as much with the spawn points as the recordholder or semi pro jumpers.
But if the player can't play overal,l its again negative against the map and might be disbanded.
Or they will take the time researching the problem and adding the addon to it. problem solved.
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Long time serveradmins will even care less about them aswell because of knowing the existent of those addons. Or they will add them with the addon itself or they ripent them into the map itself with coordinates. (Time consuming for server owners and could have been easily done by mappers by supporting the max playercount)
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New serveradmins, new jumpers who wants to host are not aware of such problems and will run sooner or later in those problems. There are a few ways:
1. They will disband those maps from the server or cycle
2. They will try to solve the problem itself by researching.
2.1 they will add the addons
2.1.1 they will end up having the wrong addon and the players are getting spawnfragged / telefragged (Negative impression of the server for the players)
2.1.2 they will add spawn points thru an addon. (a few will disband this because of how much time will be wasted)
2.2 they will add spawn points thru coordinates from bspviewer or exported map files in hammer into ripent (also time consuming and a waste of time)
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As the communitylead/origin point:
you have a responsibility to the community that every side is in line. By being the official site and with the closing maptag. You have the responsibility that the resources(maps) are given, that it works as it is intended(counter-strike/goldsource)
So why such a hassle and rewriting this rule? To allow more maps swapping over from cosy to xj to give us the impression to have faster map releases?
Rewriting a few rules doesn't make it more attractive. Since the mapping scene on xj is nearly dead. To make it attractive again you have to make alot more effort, like Commandeer has done with the map contest.
25/08/2018 09:51I admit spr1n will come at you like a train if he believes his opinion is right, but I also have to say you're still argumenting your statements very poorly. Why would you even start this thread by saying don't discuss here if we can't suggest a fix for this "massive" problem you're making this rule out to be?
Have you noticed most servers don't even run 32 slots anymore? Because everybody has noticed it's not necessary to pay for such amount because the server is never that full.
It takes me about 30 seconds to install a plugin for my server. I would dare say this spawn problem is known to every single server owner out there, and as mentioned in the comment section before it was fixed in 2008. And also as mentioned before, any good server nowadays has their own modifications of the old public kz plugins, which already have this spawn fix included in them.
You have this weird war against addons for some reason I can't quite understand. Have you tried an addon pack from kzrush for example? Do you know much stuff has been added to make recording a lot easier?
Have you considered server owners will add maps from other places than XJ too? Even private maps or maps made just for fun not even thinking about 32 slot servers? I'm quite certain a vast majority of kz servers run more than just the official maps, which means forcing such a rule here hardly makes a difference. They will run into the spawn problem at some point anyway and with 1 minute of googling they will fix it.
New server admins will always run into problems, I can tell that from personal experience. I will also say if they're just going to "evade" such problems instead of actually fixing them, that's just plain poor server management.
This rule change is not a hassle. It's simply an unnecessary rule which creates extra work for the mapping team without any good reason.
Related to the topic, I was curious so I made a list of maps' spawn count https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Nj7sr0xWpXt0TCGypLw9_uwtFPhgoY6XZ_jsgzpuTfw/edit#gid=0&fvid=1020137130
25/08/2018 10:46I am just going to paste my comment on the newspage here:
It is in fact in the resposibility of the mapper to make sure his make can be played in multiplayer by adding enough spawn points. The plugins can fix that but if they don't and the map is not playable, it just shouldn't be in public servers and it's the mapper's loss.
So in either case, mapper's responsible if his map will be played or not. The mapcheck commitee should make sure it is at all playable. If I made a map, I would make sure to place 32 spawn points inside. It's not a lot to do after the amount of work put into the actual map.
In short, I don't think it is necessary to make a rule for it, but it should be suggested.
25/08/2018 12:51irQuaker's list of maps' spawn count tells the story! Lots of maps and for a long time...less than 32 spawns. Not much complaints for all these years about it either..? Why complain when we say "OK, let's lower the spawn rule" then?
FuZzy1 said "My suggestion is to make the spawn rule like this:
Maps should have at least 8 spawn points (32 recommended). Else new, and even old, mappers will just add 8 spawn points even if hey don't have entities limit problems."
That is a point. If you say the rule is 8 spawns and leave it at that, many people will assume that it is just that - 8 spawns. It should be emphasized that the reqirement is lowered from 32 to 8, but that we still would like to see 32 spawns unless you don't have a reason not to include all 32.
I suggested
"Maps should have at least 8 spawn points (32 recommended).
If you can afford to use 32 spawns then please do so to ensure maximum backwards compatibility and gameplay on all servers regardless of plugins. We do enforce maps to have at the very least 8 spawn points however, and if less the map WILL be rejected."
25/08/2018 13:29(edited 25/08/2018 14:53)For me its simple, rule still suggests to use 32 slots and rejects maps with less than 8. It shouldn't promote to save generally insignificant resources that way. It is acceptable from my point of view because maps with less than 32 slots already exist in official map cycle, this caused issues on public servers in the past and all that got solved by around 2008. This rule resolves complications around map acceptance, especially when communication with mapper is complicated, which is more significant trade off to VERY RARE issues people encounter setting up own servers using inferior kz plugins. In case impact is more significant than my estimation - I will gladly change my mind and support opposition of this rule.
Goldsource is not designed for multiplayer. Cstrike is a mod that just brought some minimal multiplayer functionality. Singleplayer and multiplayer experience of a kz map is simply NOT THE SAME. You can't brush off addons existence when talking about multiplayer servers, just because it suits your narrative. In news comments you questioned if we've played servers without plugins, suggesting it is acceptable - that only shows your ignorance to issues that arise in multiplayer environment, and we explained exactly that and even provided examples.
As to Server admin perspective - I was involved in Insilio and KZBaltic server development around 2008 and seen last echo of this issue getting fixed completely first hand. (team limit was fixed even in 2005 if not earlier, by team choice bypass). I've seen this issue being fixed on all active servers and in some public plugins even back then. Ofc there are plugins where this issue surfaces clearly, but you have to understand that multiplayer experience is not the same and kz plugin has to address few DOZENS of small thing like that, in order to provide experience that mapper has intended without exploits and bugs. By my estimation plugins that have this issue also have many other issues to begin with and it becomes irrelevant part of the equation, where server admin simply has to get/develop proper kz plugin that handles all multiplayer related issues. Even when this issue isn't fixed completely - conditions for it to cause problems are way too specific to occur commonly. I'm gonna repeat myself: maps with less than 32 slots already exist, this issue is already solved. there no new significant requirements for server admins!
If I'm wrong about significance of this issue - I'm genuinely open to changing my mind. BUT "we should not rely on plugins"and "it is more work for Server admins" is a bullshit ideology detached from practice (so far), it is wrong and I explained you why multiple times.
I could see your "perspectives" from the beginning, but if you can't follow logical progression of a conversation - it is your problem, take a step back and start asking questions if you don't understand something. I'm an adult and I don't have a vendetta against you, talk to me rationally please, stop ignoring people's argumentation that address you concerns directly and I will treat you accordingly. Did I forget to address some of your main points? I don't think so. If I did, feel free to remind me.
25/08/2018 14:12all this long texts for spawn rule? xD
im just here to say im happy quaker is here (again) !
also, if the problem is to add spawn plugin...then why it isnt a problem to add kz-demo recording, cuz its must have, without it you cant record a demo (wont know the time ect)
25/08/2018 14:37Originally posted by irQuakerRelated to the topic, I was curious so I made a list of maps' spawn count https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Nj7sr0xWpXt0TCGypLw9_uwtFPhgoY6XZ_jsgzpuTfw/edit#gid=0&fvid=1020137130
290/725 of the maps have 32 spawns. This rule will ruin this nearly perfect score. Server admins now would have to work overtime and double shifts to fix all the damage this evil rule has caused and its still will be impossible to run Servers, because this new issue was never seen before! XJ administration are unreasonable tyrants - burn them!
25/08/2018 14:56I don't believe there will be alot of issues nowdays on public servers with lower spawns at all. Most servers have this plugin included in their servers.. and if not they can get one and fix any spawn map issue in a few mins. If the issue was fixed around 2008, now 10 years later it shouldn't be issue at all. If it is let the mappers put more focus on their maps or Server admins can just increase the spawns on 2/3 out of 100 + maps they encounter that issue (if even). I understand on keeping the standards original and official etc sounds better but imo things like that should evolve and let be handled by server admins aswell. If you are about to add 8 spawns (atleast) then u will re-think it and add 16 or 32... it is like a reminder for the mappers sake. Making a rule to add 32 spawns will mean that alot of maps will be rejected because mappers (even my self) dont do that, or forget ... or they dont believe they're needed. Let them server admins work abit more if needed :)
Speaking from casual public player's prespective -
The last time I saw a 32/32 kz server was a year ago and that was only because someone like LEWLY, lrs or shNz was playing while 90% of the server was spectating. :D
That happened in nobkz and kz-endo several times.
It's pretty useless rule imo since it doesn't "force" server admins anymore like demolite says. That's not going to happen considering the activity of KZ nowadays. Also, I've played in a lot of kz servers and for all these years I've had problem with spawn points only 3-4 times that were fixed immediately by adding some extra spawn points. No one complained, no one even considered it a big deal, no one felt "forced" by having to add it, because they had to deal with much harsher problems related to addons. Like for example moden REC bot or buggy LJ stats plugins.
I agree on recommending 32 spawn points, but not forcing it, at least not in our current timeline.
Hi Ladz
My POV as an ex KZ server owner.
Itz fucking annoying to have a map with 2,6,9 spawnpoints
ye sure i can use a plugin to fix that in a few sec
but sometimes it doesn´t work and you stuck in the void.
Ye /start will help. me is new...do i know it? No!
Try to reconect itz the same...fuck no blacklist this server
or even worse remember the mapname and never try it out!
And you know what ...? there is something even worse.....
Mappers that put the teleport after a fail in the fucking wrong direction..ye there is a plugin...i know!
"Goldsource is not designed for multiplayer."
Ok i will inform my younger me that he has to stop
this HL:DM game he is playing.
25/08/2018 22:23Originally posted by KraXXXelHi Ladz
My POV as an ex KZ server owner.
Hello fellow server owner!
Originally posted by KraXXXelItz fucking annoying to have a map with 2,6,9 spawnpoints
ye sure i can use a plugin to fix that in a few sec
but sometimes it doesn´t work and you stuck in the void.
Ye /start will help. me is new...do i know it? No!
Try to reconect itz the same...fuck no blacklist this server
or even worse remember the mapname and never try it out.
No need to curse! Plugins do work even with such low spawn slots perfectly fine and new players don't have to do or know anything there. I'm sorry to hear you had bad experience by not using an actual fix. How can we solve this issue for you? remove maps with less than 9 spawns form official map cycle? less than 15? less than 32? Cool story, these are existing maps and there are a lot of them... or just maybe you could spend extra "few sec" as you say and get proper fix? I can't imagine you had any other issues with such attitude and your server ran perfectly fine except for this one particular problem. May I ask what was it called?
Just to keep you up to speed - we are discussing the rule that targets future maps, not existing ones. So unfortunately it will not eradicate your frustration completely in any case.
Originally posted by KraXXXelAnd you know what there is something even worse.....
Mappers that put the teleport after a fail in the fucking wrong direction...ye there is a plugin....i know!
Hate it too, not relevant at all.
Originally posted by KraXXXel"Goldsource is not designed for multiplayer."
Ok i will inform my younger me that he has to stop
this HL:DM game he is playing.
I was shocked as you were, tf, dm, cstrike -all have networking code, that was added on top of goldsource with minimal functionality, if you take a closer look original goldsource engine doesn't have entities that capable of distinguishing players from one another, multiplayer works in a different way, hence technically singleplayer and multiplayer are not the same experience. Pay attention to the context.
"Pay attention to the context" nope not today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH0Fspgh7qc&feature=youtu.be
26/08/2018 01:40Congratulations on coming in on 19th place of 24?
This is relevant how?
26/08/2018 04:26I had some maps removed on my server because people reported it to the community CEO as "bugged maps". That sucks
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