A major change in bhop-longjump records rules
When you first look at it, this suggestion may seem unreasonable or senseless, but I advise you to read it carefully and think before you post anything.
Everyone knows this: "Bhop-longjumps must be done on bhop blocks". This sounds logical, right? Well, for me, at least, it doesn't.
So here is my suggestion:
Allow bhop-longjump records to be done on any type of blocks (bhop, lj, cj, or hj).
Why? I'll give you a brief explaination.
First, let's define "a bhop block". In most cases it is a block that goes down when you touch it. Such blocks are used in bhop-maps to make players do bhops, instead of normal jumps.
But they aren't needed in longjumping. Bhops can be done anywhere, not just on falling blocks. This applies to bhop-longjumps, too. And there's no reason to restrict bhop-lj demos to just falling blocks, whitch only makes them harder to do.
So, this is my suggestion. If you have any questions or you don't understand something, feel free to ask. Please, only serious posts.
I think Grrr will come post here with his theories and "prove" you/the community wrong about this question. Allegedly there is a clear difference between hj/cj/lj and BHOP blocks and it is "harder" to perform a bunnyhop longjump in a bhop block than it is in, for instance, a longjump block. I find that theory untrue.
I would have to agree with you here, Stefki4a, and I'd be rather delighted to see this "thing" changed here. Personally I hit the 299 prestrafe easier in longjump blocks than I do in bunnyhop blocks making it more convinient for me!
P.S: Some of you might remember Supas' 246 bhop longjump in the Longjump Record-list. He performed it in LAN with legal kreedz settings and in a longjump block - his demo WAS accepted (for a very brief moment) but after the community whined in the chatbox about it, it was quickly removed from the record tables. Supa also didn't kill himself in the demo, but as it has been stated by the admins already stated (if I recall correctly, information about this following matter was given by admins when heL^_x's bkz_goldbhop in 01:31 was released), the "kill required in a demo" was/is a very old rule and it was used for the admins to see who actually performed the run in the very demo itself... as demo-checking has been progressing through time, other ways of finding out who the jumper in the demo has been found out. The kill isn't actually necessary anymore, even if it is stated so in the rules.
If community would accept bhop longjumps done on lj blocks, it would turn into lj-community. Bhop is bhop, have you ever seen non-falling bhop blocks that really are meant for bhoping (like goldbhop without falling blocks)? I seriously think this should not be allowed, it's like jumping highjump with countjump techique.
yeah i really hope Grrr or numb or whoever those uber cs physics geekz0rs are, come in here and prove that theres no real difference other than timing difficulty.
i did 245 block in phoogi public ~5th shot on a lj block, and, admittedly through lack of trying, have not done it on bhop blocks in lan. i know from experience mpbhops, or regular blocks are MUCH easier to time bhopping than on falling blocks....
so i can see why people may want to be able to perform their bhop ljs on such blocks. i mean, why wouldnt you, its EASIER - but its not the way it is, i'd also like to record some uber wrs with multibhop on so i can bhop easier but thats not how it works!
imo, and i know im never one for nostalgia, but a bhop lj should be done on bhop lj blocks, same as ljs should be done on lj not cj blocks. its the way it has always been and the way it should continue to be (since cj was discovered ofc)
i see your point in saying 'its a bhop lj' not 'a bhop' - paraphrase - BUT imo, its still a bhop, and the falling block in a way is somewhat the defining factor in this. with the way kz is played, the falling blocks are the bhops, so, therefore the falling block should be the bhop lj.
thats just my opinion, it should stay the way it is.
edit; XJ will never turn into a lj community. most of the people try to act cool and say "i dun care f0r t3h ljZ lul" and shit like that. to be an lj geek is somewhat shameful rofl.
plus the admins have made like 2 releases since ljs2 was released lol
i think its safe to say the wrs will always be the focal point on this site, and ljs will be in the background. nothing is gonna change that.
21/11/2009 07:17hah lol if this happens the wr @ bhop lj will be 250 because its much easier to be done on highjump block
After reading your posts, this is my response:
Remake,
If community would accept bhop longjumps done on lj blocks, it would turn into lj-community.
No, it wouldn't. There would be just more and better bhop-ljs submitted, that's all. Also, check Hazard's post.
Bhop is bhop, have you ever seen non-falling bhop blocks that really are meant for bhoping (like goldbhop without falling blocks)?
Goldbhop is a bhop map. We're talking about longjumping here. And longjumping is about finding the limits of the HL-engine. That's why, for example, CJ blocks are shaped the way they are.
it's like jumping highjump with countjump techique.
Correct. BUT, pay attention to this:
There is no difference (in physics,at least) between CJing on a cj block and a CJing on a hj block.
If you jump 245 cj on a hj block ---> it is still considered a 245 CJ, not HJ. So, if you jump 245 bhop on a hj block ---> it is considered a 245 BHOP-LJ, not HJ.
And, if for some reason, it is easy for someone to do a good CJ pre on hj blocks, then he is free to record a 249 cj on a hj block, and it would be a legal 249_CJ demo.
Hazard,
so i can see why people may want to be able to perform their bhop ljs on such blocks. i mean, why wouldnt you, its EASIER - but its not the way it is
That's right, it isn't. And that's why I am posting this suggestion, To change this. This is what this thread is all about. You should post some good reasons why not to change the rules, rather than saying "That's not the way it is".
i'd also like to record some uber wrs with multibhop on so i can bhop easier but thats not how it works!
I guess that by "WR's" you mean map records (""i think its safe to say the wrs will always be the focal point on this site"")? We're talking about longjumping here, and map records are out of the question. The mpbhops isn't allowed in wrs, because it is an advantage plugin.
but a bhop lj should be done on bhop lj blocks, same as ljs should be done on lj not cj blocks. its the way it has always been and the way it should continue to be (since cj was discovered ofc)
Ljs on cj blocks are allowed. I remember particularly SnipeROK's 256_lj, done on a cj block. It was in the records list. About the "it's the way it has always been" part--> As I said before, the thread is about this change. I think that "the way it has always been" is wrong, and needs changing.
its just stupid to set the rule that u must be on blj blocks, but why care :S learn bhop on them or dont do any wrs ur decide ^^
So I did 1 random bhop script and I tried it on bhop and lj block, tried to do the maximum possible block with it, heres the demo(s): http://www.sendspace.com/file/1w6pr4
As u can see the stats are nearly the same except the distance... also I was getting like 247.1 failed stats on the bhop block and like 248.5 on the lj block , but I couldn't do more than the stats showed when I did the blocks.
So we can consider that theres a difference between jumping on bhop and normal block.
13/12/2009 14:30There's also a thing that was never defined. The speed the bhop block goes down. That plays a huge role on the distance.
I think it's just a stupid idea to make bhop blocks go down on a longjump map. I'd like to see any good arguments for blocks going down.
13/12/2009 16:07Bhopping was found before maps with func_door down jumps. I think a bhop is a bhop, even on a normal floor, so bj should be accepted on any surface.
I don't think the speed that the block goes down matters if you hit the block perfectly, but then again some people can probably make 245+ without a perfect standup so it might make a difference anyway. Not enough knowledge about it.
I think the reason so many people find it harder to bhop LJ on the blocks that goes down, is because they don't have enough space to jump or land. It's much easier to get a good pre on LJ blocks for example.
offtopic: Sexy post count Flibo (1111).
you're almost there too mr komid.
i find it to be much easier when the blocks don't go down. not really in terms of better distance (i don't lj on lan enough to say for sure) but i'm much more consistent with mpbhops on, or on ground. the thing with falling blocks is that you really do need better timing than on static blocks, and i think with that being another aspect of the technique to perfect, it should stay that way (on falling blocks)
Originally posted by omiloI don't think the speed that the block goes down matters if you hit the block perfectly, but then again some people can probably make 245+ without a perfect standup so it might make a difference anyway. Not enough knowledge about it.
I think the reason so many people find it harder to bhop LJ on the blocks that goes down, is because they don't have enough space to jump or land. It's much easier to get a good pre on LJ blocks for example.
offtopic: Sexy post count Flibo (1111).
on cg_cbblebhop there's a part where the bhop blocks goes down uber fast, and i find that hard to bhop.
13/12/2009 17:39well bhop-lj technique was meant for bhop blocks at 1st place.
also there is a big difference between bhoping on regular surface and bhop blocks. speed etc are the same, but on kz_longjumps bhop blocks (for example) your maximum height after bhop is ~0.9 units lower than on regular surface (thats w/o standup, for standups it would be the same I think, but its harder to measure).
I think its because engine predicts touching and actual jumpoff is calculated from lower position, when player is actually on 0 level. when you do eb or jb on bhop block it always goes down, tho there is no real touch. so i belive on bhop blocks traectory stays the same, but just a bit lower... thats why it seems harder etc.
ps. Im 100% sure just about max height difference. other is just a thoughts. I belive eDark could explane it well.
Well I posted facts, not just theory.. and it has nothing to do with my "bhop feeling", the jumpoff is done on the perfect frame/timing on both blocks, everything is the same except the blocks. Can't tell whats the exactly difference in units, cuz it depents on the speed of the block which goes down.
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pushing limits by changing the technique seems pointless. bhoplj on static blocks is like saying make static blocks on all maps, so you can push wr times lower, and that will never happen...
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Originally posted by TlofTpushing limits by changing the technique seems pointless. bhoplj on static blocks is like saying make static blocks on all maps, so you can push wr times lower, and that will never happen...
Then why the fuck when I asked why this kind of cj blocks on kz_ljs2 are allowed, cuz of the pointless gay prestrafe.. they answered me that they wanna see "human's lj limits on blocks", bhoping on static blocks could gain like 1.5 units for the BhopLJ WR holders + the default jump must be done onground, or people could just use amx plugins which remove that "blocking fall" or check whats the slower block's falling speed on kz_ljs or kz_ljs2.. to perform bhop lj-ing easier ( with more distance )
i always feel harder to bhop on bhop blocks than lj blocks
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