A major change in bhop-longjump records rules
14/12/2009 21:45(edited 14/12/2009 22:10)Also, maps are maps. Mappers design and create them the way they like. The goal is to beat the map, that the mapper created, in the fastest time possible. Longjuming is a totally different thing.
You can't say that... At first there were the maps and then the techniques were invented to beat the maps faster than before (and with former impossible shortcuts).
Longjumps aren't a threoretical thing just to test out the limits of the engine, they were (and still are) jumps that were included in the maps and needed to be done to finish the map or save some time. I think kz_man_riverside was the first map with an extra minimap to explore how far people can actually jump (~220 units was considered as "long jump" at that time).
Same applies for bhop LJ. kz_megabhop was the first map (if I'm not mistaken) that had a minimap with bhop LJ's, followed by kz_kzse_dustbhop. The bhop LJ's were also included in the main map, so you needed to do them (215 units in the easy version I think) in order to beat the map... and they were sinking just like the other bhop stones, cause that's what bhop stones do (therefore you need to bhop them, otherwise you are going to sink and being teleported back). Also they were included in an extra minimap to determine how far people can jump when bhopping from a sinking stone. That's pretty much the definition of it... bhopping from a skinking stone, to avoid being teleported back - not bhopping on a solid stone. Bhopping a normal longjump is pointless, since you can do a normal longjump on it. Allowing people to perform their bhops under easier conditions on solid lj blocks (not sinking, therfore easier timing etc.) would be pretty much the same as allowing CJ on HJ blocks...
So I don't think we need a pointless new category just to explore the limits of an useless "new technique" (GRRR already posted that it's easier to bhop on normal LJ stones - and that's exactly what the common sense does tell us, too or pretty much everyone already experienced when tryed.... so it should be considered as new technique).
However, I'm open for any logical arguments against my argumentation.
P.S: LJ's are supposed to be made on LJ blocks, not on CJ/HJ/WJ/whateverJ blocks of course. Just like in the main use, meaning recording a record with a LJ shortcut, you don't have unlimited space to pre-strafe. CJ blocks were invented when the CJ was discovered, and it should be used for CJ - and CJ only.
14/12/2009 22:28maybe u should close this thread now faker ? :)
grrr i dont think the small rise in a cj block makes any difference to your speed if you run up it. i think its just there to separate the actual block from where you pre
well said faker.
Originally posted by TlofTgrrr i dont think the small rise in a cj block makes any difference to your speed if you run up it. i think its just there to separate the actual block from where you pre
well said faker.
Well if its not so big deal why no1 could do the 272 units TJ with knife on de_train ? even if some1 could do 275 block on kz_ljs2 I know that he couldn't even do 267 normal block
Originally posted by fakerBhopping a normal longjump is pointless, since you can do a normal longjump on it. Allowing people to perform their bhops under easier conditions on solid lj blocks (not sinking, therfore easier timing etc.) would be pretty much the same as allowing CJ on HJ blocks...
So I don't think we need a pointless new category just to explore the limits of an useless "new technique" (GRRR already posted that it's easier to bhop on normal LJ stones - and that's exactly what the common sense does tell us, too or pretty much everyone already experienced when tryed.... so it should be considered as new technique).
However, I'm open for any logical arguments against my argumentation.
P.S: LJ's are supposed to be made on LJ blocks, not on CJ/HJ/WJ/whateverJ blocks of course. Just like in the main use, meaning recording a record with a LJ shortcut, you don't have unlimited space to pre-strafe. CJ blocks were invented when the CJ was discovered, and it should be used for CJ - and CJ only.
Well if we talk about useful techniques.. reverse bhoplongjumping, some weirdjumps , countjumping on normal blocks are also included as a part of KZ-ing / for making shortcuts (I never seen a shortcut performed on block like the kz_ljs2 cj blocks) I agree with u about the bhop blocks(cuz there are SC-s like these) but atleast u (admins) should add a mapping rule about the bhop block's falling speed ( set a XXX speed on all bhop blocks on all maps )
What about separating useful LJ techniques from useless ?
15/12/2009 13:16Just because some mapper decided to add a minimap with bhop longjumps he defined a "new" technique? I'm pretty sure long()jumps were performed with bhop much before there even were kz maps with bhop blocks.
Also, Grrr is making a good point about the CJ blocks. I've never seen such a scenario in a real kz map. If you can do an "unlimited" pre with CJ, why can't you do it with LJ? What is this "LJ shortcut" you're talking about? How can you define how much space you can use for your prestrafe? Is there a solid limit? There were no limits in the mapping competition... I always thought the CJ blocks were a bit distasteful anyway.
How is bhopping on normal LJ blocks the same as CJ on HJ blocks? With CJ you gain absolutely nothing, with bhop you get extra distance compared to bhop blocks.
Solid blocks for bhopping isn't a new category... It's an older way to bhop lj than using sinking blocks.
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How about spike LJ, spike reverse bhop or even thin LJ (like spike but elongated), that would be interesting to know.
But if bhop differs on bhop block and non-bhop block it is clear that those two should be separate category. Even if argument here is that one would use LJ instead of bhop on flat ground aka non droping plane you should consider that sometimes LJ is inefficient - perhaps space is too small and you need reverse bhop or normal bhop.
So the only question is: are bhops the same, if they aren't you have two techniques and not one. If they are, then it is irrelevant.
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