More small bhopmaps?
Nice reply Jonde, it's good to see someone expres how they feel especially when it's well written with so much honesty involved.
But...
Let me get this straight, because you don't get the same satisfaction out of beating these small bhop maps, it means that XJ should not accept it? As far as I can see, and that's only based on the vote of 13 votes. 9 out of these 13 votes says yes. These people probably get the same "satisfaction" out of beating these small bhop maps as you get by beating a longer map in 4-10 minutes. But then again that's only based on 13 votes. But right now the yes vote is leading by 144%.
I think that this community should be flexible, not in the sense where they decrease the current standard of an accepted map, but in a sense where a well created, fun to climb and good looking bhop map should be accepted, no matter how short it is. Plus they give some epic worldrecords. Remember back in the day, when donakos beat goldbhop in 1:50, it was hard to imagine how you could improve it. That's around 3-4 years ago. In 2 years from now goldbhop is most likely below 1:29 - These demos are xtreme-ly popular amoung KZ'ers worldwide.
Think of it this way, you, don't have to play the maps, but imagine how many other players will.
-
remake I understand where you're coming from, and it's not something I expect to happen from one day to the other, where XJ starts to accept every small and bad produced map, but what I'm saying is, that it wouldn't harm anyone, if XJ started to accept some well created and creative smaller bhop maps - In fact it would make a lot of people happy.
Or I could be wrong and it's a very small group of people who agrees with this.
But goldbhop, pipebhop, venice, coldbhop x2, junglebhop, arizonabhop, wildwestbhop, prochallenge, shrubhop x 2, cbblebhop, bhopblock, megabhop x 2, bunny are all maps under 2 minutes that have seen A LOT of pro's. These maps are so hard fought for, so spectator friendly and has had so many battles on them.
- How about a public vote?
I see your point.
But we need to think ahead of time as well.
Yes, these small bhop maps would be fun now but would they be fun in the future? The perfect runs of these maps will be with out a doubt reached much quicker than the limit of longer, harder maps. That means that the maps become useless in the eyes of the community, what's the point of playing it when you can't beat the time no matter what you did?
In longer maps you almost always can bunnyhop one more block to save that crucial 0.3 seconds. This is because longer maps need more dedication to finish thus making the climbers jump more safely in the end because they don't want to ruin a great run.
In longer maps you need to decide whether to beat the current world record by a small margin by taking it easy or risk it all by going all out in the end as well.
Nowadays people tend to like short bhop maps and I can understand that. Who wouldn't like a map that you can finish several times in a 2 minutes of time with minimal effort. The competition in these maps is brutal because of the fact that you can do the perfect run, if you geek it enough. Everyone can do it with some luck. It's easy to record when it takes only some seconds to finish the map, you can go all out. No need to take it easy because if you fail, you can just restart and get back to the point you were 10 seconds ago.
I used to like these short bhop maps when I started kreedzing in the first place because I couldn't finish the harder maps. I then started to like the maps that require a little more dedication to finish. I found that I'm not after a quick time but rather a challenge. For one the challenge could be beating the map as quickly as possible but it gets boring very quickly.
It's just my opinion, I play this game for fun and rarely have other goals other than finishing a map so for me the short bhop maps are a waste but other people might like them. I'm not the only person in the world, I understand that.
I don't know why I reply here because this thing has nothing to do with me as I will probably never or very rarely try to get a good time in these maps, I maybe would just try to search for a shortcut and finish the map a couple of times.
I apologize if you find this arrogant, it's not.
No no Jonde, I don't see any arrogance in your post, though it seems to me you must be pretty new on XJ.
You wrote... "Yes, these small bhop maps would be fun now but would they be fun in the future? The perfect runs of these maps will be with out a doubt reached much quicker than the limit of longer, harder maps. That means that the maps become useless in the eyes of the community, what's the point of playing it when you can't beat the time no matter what you did?"
... After 5 years on this community, no small bhop map has yet had a perfect time on it. So I can't see why you'd think that they are perfect now. Goldbhop will be beaten along with all the other maps, I don't doubt that and therefor they will not become useless to the community.
Later in your reply you write that anybody can do it with a bit of luck, and that's just plain ignorance. To beat one of these maps you must at least be one of the fastest and consistent bhoppers in world. No doubt.
Lets take an example on goldbhop:
(03/20/09) 01:33 heL^_x *
(01/11/09) 01:33 kunqui
(12/19/08) 01:34 kunqui
(01/20/08) 01:35 bibo
(01/12/08) 01:36 bibo
(11/20/07) 01:37 zhady
(10/25/07) 01:38 rEs0LuTe
(02/04/07) 01:39 Z0ck3rOO7
(12/14/06) 01:42 ndR
(12/03/06) 01:43 Z0ck3rOO7
(10/07/06) 01:44 ndR
(08/24/06) 01:45 tarGet
(07/25/06) 01:48 donakos
(07/23/06) 01:50 donakos
And that only goes to 2009, but it shows you that bhoppers have been able to perfect these records even more. When heL did 1:33 would you have imagined that anybody would do 1:30? Probably no, and that's why these maps are so darn great, because they have the ability of surprise. A run can seem perfect in the eyes of the average kreedzer, but I doubt shNz, kelta, KKZ or NAPZ sees it the same way, and therefor they will be able to beat it.
I made this thread because I really enjoy these kind of records. They are some of the most spectatorfriendly records at all. Their mindblowing in the eyes of normal CS'ers.
These maps has showed great potential and are now a loved part of XJ. So why not? If the map looks good, is fun to play and has a bit of creativity in them, why not?
it is simple in my opinion... where u can see more competition: in bhop/speed maps, or in climb/block maps? ... then, where u can see more competition, or just where the competition gets higher and more interesting: in long maps or in short maps?
i have watched thousands and thousands of demos since i play kz, and even tho i love lot of long/climb maps, i really enjoy more the competition in bhop/speed maps.. there, for example, u can appreciate better where does a player save some time, compared to other player, so then that player can improve his old demo making any of all the new techniques, like dduck or so (also other player can beat that demo, ofc).. in long maps its difficult to see this, and in climb maps, the one who is faster in each block, has lot of chance to get the wr, but skips, or dducks or the idea of making standups as less as possible, are specific of bhop or speed maps (maybe im wrong).
so that is what i think.. im not against long maps, hard-xtreme maps (i love watching demos in those maps), but it would be nice to see more of this maps that we are requesting.
Originally posted by Punk^Instead of just talking about it, why don't you guys nominate some maps instead :-) We're already doing exactly what you're talking about, but the maps won't be accepted unless someone nominate them :-)
Get nominating.
come on dude, its clear that the nomination system doesnt have any activity, and in fact it doesnt help XJ... look at the recent accepted maps.. they are pretty all ~4-5 mins maps or more, and average-hard-extreme.. (dojo, deathtales, both communityblocks, fineblock, dahnajourney, textures, cosy temple, waterplant, desperados)... look the maps that were recently accepted by the nomination system, some of them are really great maps, others maybe not that great.. ALL those maps are 4+ mins. NONE of those are bhop/speed maps. (i dont know if kz_dojo and kzro_deathtales were in the nomination forum).
now, what i personally want is to see lot of demos per map, not only 2 or 3.. in these maps, unfortunately i dont think there will be much more demos in the future. thats why i would like to see short maps (if they are bhop/speed it would be better).
well, i still have a lot to say about this topic, but i dont want, even i dont have time.
27/10/2010 22:07its nice to see in such a discussion coldbhop many times.
the idea behind DaMp and mine coldbhop was the intension to make something speedable and hardly fought.
But lately nowdays its hard to get a smallmap accepted because of the high standards and the not knowledge of the capablility of the goldsrc engine.
I hope that some mappers will come and made some masterpieces like venice, arizonabhop, wildwestbhop & cbblebhop.
Its time for a harder fight in the milisecond scene.
"Its time for a harder fight in the milisecond scene."
Well put... And I agree, in these maps it's accepted to beat small margins.
You can consider what follows here an official answer.
Let me stop you right here with this :
xj is only accepting average/hard maps atm
This affirmation is totally false. To put it short, we are accepting what the mappers are submitting/community is nominating. If we get only these type of maps from where we can choose, then it is not our fault.
We also have implemented the Nomination system, system which can be used by every member in the community. It is at your free will to nominate which map (already released) you want.
We made this for you, for the community, for this type of situations. If you want to see an unofficial map being the target of official WRs, you can make that happen.
But for the sake of the discussion, I will tell you this. We, the staff, are aiming for a more professional community. Automatically, accepting maps with a lower rate of complexity will not help us move ahead in making the community an "upper echelon", but it will only help in seeing more demos. Don't get it wrong. Seeing more demos is making all of us happy. We are thinking and we do care for our members/jumpers. It is one of our main goals. But, being the persons in charge of running and administrating the community (making sure that it is on the right track) we have to look at every problem from a different point of view as well.
As a last word, I assure you if and when we will receive a short bhop/speed map, we will definitely think at what the community wants before voting.
Best regards,
XJ map admin, CyclopP
27/10/2010 23:41CyclopP: theres maps in the nominations forum that got more votes than maps that already got released, why they're not released?
bkz_volcanobhop, stf_creepytemple for example
Okay CyclopPs, nice to see you reply in that manner, but...
CyclopPs you wrote: "We are thinking and we do care for our members/jumpers. It is one of our main goals."
- what are you other main goals?
Sorry for the hard tone, I simply just assume that it was a typo or something...
28/10/2010 10:01Originally posted by kayneCyclopP: theres maps in the nominations forum that got more votes than maps that already got released, why they're not released?
bkz_volcanobhop, stf_creepytemple for example
Because we don't simply release them as soon they get enough votes. We are checking them tho and contact mappers if necesary for changes.
28/10/2010 16:04Originally posted by sn00pOriginally posted by kayneCyclopP: theres maps in the nominations forum that got more votes than maps that already got released, why they're not released?
bkz_volcanobhop, stf_creepytemple for example
Because we don't simply release them as soon they get enough votes. We are checking them tho and contact mappers if necesary for changes.
still it seems to work out slowly..
Kayne, those maps and others are currently in the checking procedure. I know that bkz_volcanobhop was nominated some time ago, but we decided to let the nomination votes go further before making any decision. And now we are voting again.
Scary, I'm afraid that what you are asking me is not the subject of this discussion.
And no, it is not a typo. I am not writing for the sake of using big words. If I say something, then I say it with a reason.
28/10/2010 16:32(edited 28/10/2010 16:32)Originally posted by sn00pWe are checking them tho and contact mappers if necesary for changes.
Sorry but thats not even necessary to refix and rerelease an already released custom map...
on entity problems its okay to use ripent but to fix a map which has been released for years it doesnt make any sense.
Originally posted by sn00pBecause we don't simply release them as soon they get enough votes. We are checking them tho and contact mappers if necesary for changes.
come one, creepytemple has atm 43 votes (the last vote it received was long time ago).. what are u waiting for? ~60 votes? is there any difference between 43 votes and 10 or 20 more votes? so now i will call 20 argentinian friends to come and vote that map, so it can be released... thats not the fact.
i still dont understand why every user can vote there, if the ones who will record the map are the recordholders (yeah, i know.. its possible that a guy who doesnt have any wr will record a new map).
so... 60 votes over 50k of users, its like nothing, and u can see lot of guys writting "i like it, my vote is yes", and maybe they will never play that map again, even they maybe will never watch a demo on it.
this nomination system was made with the need of make map releases more often, and i dont see any results, sorry...
Originally posted by sn00pBecause we don't simply release them as soon they get enough votes. We are checking them tho and contact mappers if necesary for changes.
Read the full quote kyser.
Originally posted by Punk^Originally posted by sn00pBecause we don't simply release them as soon they get enough votes. We are checking them tho and contact mappers if necesary for changes.
Read the full quote kyser.
so? what does it change? O.O rofl
28/10/2010 20:28(edited 28/10/2010 20:29)Well reading only " as soon they get enough votes " for sure isn't different that " Because we don't simply release them as soon they get enough votes "
But yet might a spelling error here and I don't see it.
You read it so the maps only are released when they've gotten a certain amount of votes.
what sn00p wrote was that the maps don't get released instantly just because they have a lot of votes.
why not? we don't need your shitty "fixes". we like volcanobhop as it is.
Seriously dooom? You should seriously reconsider your behaviour here at XJ.
Please log in to post replies.