Cheating

Hello

It's been a while, I hope all is well in the world of kreedz, I have tried my best to keep up with the current state of the game but have had little time as of late. Regardless it is wonderful to be back, I hope to stay, I'm not looking to cause any drama. I recently found some time and began playing kz again (can't get away) and came across a great number of new players. It's honestly superb that kz has managed to stand the test of time, and I hope to see more players getting involved in the greatest accomplishment 1.6 has ever seen hah!

Though, in coming across these new players I thought it would be appropriate to discuss cheating; how it works and why it is imperative that the system in which demo's are checked should be reassessed. I'm not sure how long ago it was but I believe someone actually linked me to a thread in which my views and argument (which I will get too shortly) had already been brought to light by kkz. It's not often I agree with kkz but he made an extremely good point and although I don't have the link on hand if someone wants to quote him, please, credit is due.

In essence, I want to talk about how the current system works and propose some changes that I believe may help keep the validity of kz in-check. The way in which demo's are checked is an extremely secret ordeal, despite my, well, long time playing the game, I still don't entirely understand the process nor am I asking to find out; but I think some players should.

Cheating has been a topic of debate within kz for longer than I can remember. From simple bhop scripts, to slowmo, and to all the cheats that remain undetectable, they remain an issue. Despite my own opinion on the recent longjump world-records, in which I will not comment, lol, it seems to have sparked further debate on the notion of cheating.

Currently, to catch cheaters, XJ uses eDark, alongside FPSDeath or whatever else they have, no idea, and it is generally only checked properly when a demo seems or ‘looks’ suspicious, brought to attention by the players of the community. Does this not seem a little ridiculous? So the entire validity of kz relies on one individual’s assessment? eDark is carrying the cleanliness of the game on his shoulders? eDark has done an immense amount for the games legitimacy but it seems like utter stupidity to base an entire community in the hands of one individual's skill-set.

What if he decided to leave tomorrow? Or quit? It’s like the age old stories of basing an organization on an individual, it doesn’t work. XJ has been notoriously horrible at catching cheaters, an admin, leggie, submitted the HJ wr in which he blatantly cheated (while I was there) to help prove this point (for those that don't know the story, leggie does not cheat, it was merely used as a tool to help XJ in catching cheaters; hopefully as my post will do today), the demo made it onto the frontpage, he then told them it was cheated and it was taken down. Try and imagine the amount of demos that have been idolized by the community, beaten and long-gone now, in which were probably cheated? eDark is a human, with bias, and most probably cannot catch everything (correction, he CANNOT catch everything, it is far too much a task to ask him to watch every demo submission). This is not to say he’s not good at what he does, but, really? I honestly think XJ should be investing their time into understanding the mechanics of the game a little further in actually catching cheaters before they put them on the frontpage, instead of investing in other avenues within the community. I’ve lost count of the times in which demos have been released and then later checked, and found to be cheated. For a global, worldwide, official, community to be letting demos like this through, is not acceptable... The game is over 10 years old now, at least try and find a new way to catch cheaters, and keep them barred from the community. I hate to bring my own bias into this, but I can’t stand the fact that kayne was caught cheating multiple times, and yet I’ve been perm banned 4 times for forum posts while he stands up for LyNN's 'windowed mode' because it's more comfortable to play with... Of course 'windowed mode' is his preferred setting; he cheated.. that's fact.

Regardless, I think this is an issue that needs addressing. I also heard that eDark isn’t as involved anymore, so where does that leave the admins? Can eDark not teach someone how to do it? Get over the elitist viewpoint, banning thopa for releasing FPSDeath, and actually teach people to catch cheaters. It is bound to fail, or has failed, using the skills of one individual in keeping the validity of demos in check.

Before you jump the gun and tell me that giving out information regarding cheating could hinder the community. Yes, I get it. But in giving someone admin rights, the community puts trust in these individuals just like any other avenue of gaming so in giving the benefit of the doubt is there nobody else that can acquire the skills eDark possesses? In normal Counter-Strike, people are innocent until proven guilty, which is wonderful and similar to kz BUT the benefit in kz is demos are submitted, you CAN catch them before they make the front page.

The next obvious argument is that the admins don't have time. I too, understand this. But if this is the case employ new staff? I think the use of the 'chopping block' forum is great but there has to be a better way to get these things done, no? There are thousands of fan-boys out there just waiting, sitting in the wings, ready to be called upon for their 15 minutes of fame as admin to help out (V_e) so USE this resource. It's not often a community has this much influence so why not play off that?

I hope I didn't offend, or upset, I just feel these issues need to be addressed

<3lagsterrrRinsilioiZm

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/37726772.jpg

well, there's alot more to demo checking than meets the eye, i found that out very very fast but those thing's are kept secret for good reasons... as for the tools... also kept secret so that cheaters don't get their hands on them and try find a way past them....obviously the less people that have them the less risk of them leaking, and you have to consider, although i agree with you, that eDark is pretty much the only person creating anti-cheat programs... where as there is hundreds creating cheat programs....that makes it very hard for eDark as you can imagine.


also some people help (i won't name them but they can speak up if they wish) by sending me cheated demos/cheat programs for me to check, obviously they never find the outcome of this but it helps myself and XJ as a whole.

tbh, I agree that it should be kept a secret. But not such a secretive secret that barely 3-4 people know about it. Gather some people who are not into kz and who wont bother to be, but should have basic knowledge about it and at the same time should be good at coding as well.

You and I could have discussed this on steam leggie, I'm disappointed that of the 20~ admin staff the only one who feels I'm worth replying to, and that 'cheating' is a worthy discussion, is a long-time acquaintance of mine (this probably has something to do with me, personally).

I both outlined and understand the secrecy of anti-cheat in my original post, but as stated above I also think eDark needs to teach others or at least help others in understanding the methods in catching cheaters. Are you saying that out of fear alone, eDark NEEDS to be the only one that can truly break down demos in finding cheats? I think the only reason this seems viable is because the community is relatively small, comparatively, but this process would be an absolute joke elsewhere and thus should be addressed in the progression of maintaining a professional _official_ community..

Lets assume you run with the same process in that individuals, such as eDark, catch cheaters, are my suggestions not at all steps forward? At least employing a few others to check demos week to week would help in keeping some illegitimate demos out of the record list. As I stated in the original post, all of your trust has been put into eDark so why can't you trust others? Whose to say eDark doesn't one day turn on you all and start distributing kz cheats (unrealistic, I'm being hypothetical). This raises an even bigger discussion (one in which I do not want to start) about trusting people to do the right thing as the admins of this community WHICH I understand, in terms of making the right and moral decision, isn't a strong trait held within this community but you'd think that cheating would be a priority.

Though unfortunately in using my logic we run into further issues, because it is easier to trust a guy who checks maps over someone who is checking demos.. I get that, a map checker lets an inappropriate map through; who cares? but a demo, sure, its not going to work out well for anybody. But Znx raises a good point in employing individuals whom are not actively involved in recording demos, because this is potentially why eDark is so impartial, thus trustworthy? Why doesn't someone like, like (I'm not saying it should be him) ndR.. or someone who has been around for longer than 90% of the players here, no longer recording, and has a good reputation amongst players, have access to the knowledge eDark has of catching cheaters? (Before someone, or ndR responds with "oh he quit the game" etc, understand my point first)

Employing further demo-checkers that actually understand what they are looking for, not just 'is he using /speed' is probably the best way to go.. I just don't think its professional practice waiting for someone to post in the comments or make a thread about LyNN cheating before eDark gets a call to check his demo..

Something to think about.. but of course, before we discuss the little things, like cheating, lets respond and discuss pressing issues that are absolutely imperative to the community such as the 'remov[al] [of] the slide image headers.' Crazy.

I will dedicate my 3000 post for you lagster ! You are the only one which gave a shit about everythng around here and never been in the XJ team ... You are awesome man and asbolutely right about the trust , xtreme-jumps sometimes are too serious to notice that there are other communities like kz-brazil bulgarian-kreedz etc. etc. Theese communties will die if soon there wont be a good anti-cheat system or checking system . But as I see there are only a few banned for cheating ( records ) all theese years of playing and they got back LOL why? Why some of the cheaters got unbanned and some are still banned and the other strange thing is why some guys get a ban for cheating and then they are back with more demos ... What about trust now huh?

lagster, youre best bro, im agree with DiDo-G. i hope, faker someday will stop his serious and start to do smth since there are a ton of obvious cheats.

also kayne. you shouldnt answer in here bro, youre the one of them who started this cheat-shit with juice since you joined the staff and took anticheat tools in your fked hands

/del

IMO
Cases of LyNN and becko had shown us that democheckers are not experienced enough to catch all these obvious cheaters without helping hand of eDark. :(

Originally posted by Nukk

kayne ... who started this cheat-shit with juice...

It's easy to rob a bank that has security systems you are familiar with, but difficult to rob one that you know nothing about.