KZ interesting facts

Started by JocA Banned
16/08/2019 09:39
Page 3 of 5
Nubz moviemaker05/09/2019 12:59

Originally posted by fykseN
Originally posted by Nubz
isn’t SBJ faster if it is a straight ground because you can gain more distance each jump and therefore getting from point A to B with less jumps? But regular bhop in jumping blocks when there is no need for SBJ in skips.

not presenting this as a fact just my thoughts


SBJ gains more distance, but also takes longer to execute than standard bhop.
Looking at FAME's equation for SBJ:

(238.46323 + sqrt(238.46323^2 - 4 * 0.5 * 800 * (-18))) / (2 * 0.5 * 800) = 0.66393 seconds

And for standard BJ:
(238.46323 + sqrt(238.46323^2 - 4 * 0.5 * 800)) / (2 * 0.5 * 800) = 0.59193 seconds

it confirms the fact that BJ is in fact faster. You're basically chopping down the advantage of distance that SBJ provides, that's how I understand it since then. Maybe @juice can add something to this as I'm not really an expert when it comes to engine.

As an example you can use the thread I posted:
shxKh got 31 less standups than noxeR, that's a really big number if you think about it.

The difference of each unperformed SBJ equals 0.072, multiplied 31 times = 2.232 seconds in total. That is a really huge difference on such a short map, but isn't 100% correct (fails).

yeah I can see that it is beneficial on a bhop map where there is mostly just bhop blocks and you will use the same amount of mwheelup anyways (like volcabobhop where there is not so much skips available) but let’s say you are doing a WR on cg_wildwesthop and when there are those few parts without bhop blocks, just longer distances on ground before the next bhopblock part so wouldn’t those parts be faster done using SBJ (so there are less actual bhops).

I guess what I am asking is that which of these techniques are saving more time, less actual bhops or the benefit of the time difference between BJ and SBJ

fykseN mapperrecord holder Tournament #105/09/2019 13:59(edited 05/09/2019 14:21)

Originally posted by Nubz
Originally posted by fykseN
Originally posted by Nubz
isn’t SBJ faster if it is a straight ground because you can gain more distance each jump and therefore getting from point A to B with less jumps? But regular bhop in jumping blocks when there is no need for SBJ in skips.

not presenting this as a fact just my thoughts


SBJ gains more distance, but also takes longer to execute than standard bhop.
Looking at FAME's equation for SBJ:

(238.46323 + sqrt(238.46323^2 - 4 * 0.5 * 800 * (-18))) / (2 * 0.5 * 800) = 0.66393 seconds

And for standard BJ:
(238.46323 + sqrt(238.46323^2 - 4 * 0.5 * 800)) / (2 * 0.5 * 800) = 0.59193 seconds

it confirms the fact that BJ is in fact faster. You're basically chopping down the advantage of distance that SBJ provides, that's how I understand it since then. Maybe @juice can add something to this as I'm not really an expert when it comes to engine. Maybe even the equation itself isn't perfect.

As an example you can use the thread I posted:
shxKh got 31 less standups than noxeR, that's a really big number if you think about it.

The difference of each unperformed SBJ equals 0.072, multiplied 31 times = 2.232 seconds in total. That is a really huge difference on such a short map, but isn't 100% correct (fails).

yeah I can see that it is beneficial on a bhop map where there is mostly just bhop blocks and you will use the same amount of mwheelup anyways (like volcabobhop where there is not so much skips available) but let’s say you are doing a WR on cg_wildwesthop and when there are those few parts without bhop blocks, just longer distances on ground before the next bhopblock part so wouldn’t those parts be faster done using SBJ (so there are less actual bhops).

I guess what I am asking is that which of these techniques are saving more time, less actual bhops or the benefit of the time difference between BJ and SBJ


That applies for every occassion, I believe it was mentioned in the thread I linked.
ShoCk asked me earlier why I didn't take a skip on the 1st hellinashop bhop. In exchange for that skip I would need to SBJ till the end of the part which is almost identical as not doing the skip and finishing the part with nonstandup. The difference was close to zero, not to 1 second as people might think.

I don't see how this would be different on other maps, people ususally combine sbj/bhop and just max out nonstandups where it's possible (for more than a decade, first time I agreed with McL).

fykseN mapperrecord holder Tournament #105/09/2019 14:39

Originally posted by exydos.
Originally posted by fykseN
Originally posted by exydos.
SBJ in a straight line is faster than BJ.


yeah, it's actually the complete opposite (not sure if you're joking though)

explained by FAME in this thread
https://xtreme-jumps.eu/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?363686.0


Nope, not joking. Let's suppose you get max pre on both sbj and bj jumps, wouldn't you jump faster to a certain point with sbj, considering it's a straight line


Up to a certain point - most likely, but surely not ultimately. Maybe someone will simulate this someday.

Juice05/09/2019 15:05(edited 05/09/2019 16:27)

on flat ground in a series of bhops each stand up bhop is 0.64 seconds and each non-sbj is 0.56 seconds

sajkee. mapperrecord holder05/09/2019 15:50

@JoCa add this facts, but make sure to use smaller font for these "novels" xd

JocA Banned05/09/2019 15:56

if you have 3 SBJ with 230 distance, and 3 BJs with 210 distances...does it mean you will be faster with BJs? :D i think its only possible to calculate what will be in theory (so no point)

@sajke ye i will make a book with all these things :D "Kreedz Facts 1999-2019 discovered by Players"

Chichin mapperrecord holder05/09/2019 17:42

If youre talking about powerbhop (flat ground, no blocks to aim for, no obstacles) then sbj is always better because you spend more time gaining speed while you get smaller number of slowdowns from 300+ or fog2+ bhops. Your average speed will be higher, and so you will be faster.

Nubz moviemaker05/09/2019 17:53

Originally posted by Chichin
If youre talking about powerbhop (flat ground, no blocks to aim for, no obstacles) then sbj is always better because you spend more time gaining speed while you get smaller number of slowdowns from 300+ or fog2+ bhops. Your average speed will be higher, and so you will be faster.

yeah this is what I was thinking

p0ker Tournament #2 VIP06/09/2019 03:28

Yeah, from what I've been told by both fame and fiveshot, SBJ in a pure flat ground (e.g. fastrun, leble map) is always faster than BJ, however with regular bhop maps that's not the case and it really depends on the map if sbj or bj is better suited for it. For maximum efficiency, one most likely have to spend a lot of time figuring out which places are better to be bj'd and which ones sbj'd. (on actual bhop maps, that is)

Dalxins mapper07/09/2019 09:25

all i can say that some things are impossible without standup.no matter time they take more,they requiere standup

Dalxins mapper07/09/2019 09:30

Originally posted by p0ker
Yeah, from what I've been told by both fame and fiveshot, SBJ in a pure flat ground (e.g. fastrun, leble map) is always faster than BJ, however with regular bhop maps that's not the case and it really depends on the map if sbj or bj is better suited for it. For maximum efficiency, one most likely have to spend a lot of time figuring out which places are better to be bj'd and which ones sbj'd. (on actual bhop maps, that is)

in every pro run there comes time when he needs to do sbj just to fly to that next block even if he didnt want to do sbj there..to not fail we automaticly crouch and try to keep it up

Dalxins mapper07/09/2019 09:32

Originally posted by Nubz
Originally posted by fykseN
Originally posted by Nubz
isn’t SBJ faster if it is a straight ground because you can gain more distance each jump and therefore getting from point A to B with less jumps? But regular bhop in jumping blocks when there is no need for SBJ in skips.

not presenting this as a fact just my thoughts


SBJ gains more distance, but also takes longer to execute than standard bhop.
Looking at FAME's equation for SBJ:

(238.46323 + sqrt(238.46323^2 - 4 * 0.5 * 800 * (-18))) / (2 * 0.5 * 800) = 0.66393 seconds

And for standard BJ:
(238.46323 + sqrt(238.46323^2 - 4 * 0.5 * 800)) / (2 * 0.5 * 800) = 0.59193 seconds

it confirms the fact that BJ is in fact faster. You're basically chopping down the advantage of distance that SBJ provides, that's how I understand it since then. Maybe @juice can add something to this as I'm not really an expert when it comes to engine.

As an example you can use the thread I posted:
shxKh got 31 less standups than noxeR, that's a really big number if you think about it.

The difference of each unperformed SBJ equals 0.072, multiplied 31 times = 2.232 seconds in total. That is a really huge difference on such a short map, but isn't 100% correct (fails).

yeah I can see that it is beneficial on a bhop map where there is mostly just bhop blocks and you will use the same amount of mwheelup anyways (like volcabobhop where there is not so much skips available) but let’s say you are doing a WR on cg_wildwesthop and when there are those few parts without bhop blocks, just longer distances on ground before the next bhopblock part so wouldn’t those parts be faster done using SBJ (so there are less actual bhops).

I guess what I am asking is that which of these techniques are saving more time, less actual bhops or the benefit of the time difference between BJ and SBJ

while sbj takes longer,you fly further with it.and thats 100% fact.you can try to calculate it..but imo it evens out.sbj=longer,bj=shorter and faster by 0.09 seconds

Fiveshot07/09/2019 11:01

I did a test with kkz jump type bhops and sbj's in order to keep my prestrafe exactly the same on bj and sbj test (250.0) and the results from dot A to dot B are: BJ: 20bhops with 250.0 pre, time: 12.60sec, SBJ: 18bhops with 250.0 pre, time 12.60sec. Without gaining any speed by strafing the results are 2 bhops less in sbj case. In strafing case ( + gaining speed) on straight direction less jumps higher speed and distance (sbj) would be the better case.

fykseN mapperrecord holder Tournament #107/09/2019 13:25

Originally posted by Fiveshot
I did a test with kkz jump type bhops and sbj's in order to keep my prestrafe exactly the same on bj and sbj test (250.0) and the results from dot A to dot B are: BJ: 20bhops with 250.0 pre, time: 12.60sec, SBJ: 18bhops with 250.0 pre, time 12.60sec. Without gaining any speed by strafing the results are 2 bhops less in sbj case. In strafing case ( + gaining speed) on straight direction less jumps higher speed and distance (sbj) would be the better case.


fair enough if you separate ideal/same for both conditions and reality, thanks for the research

Fiveshot07/09/2019 14:15

Originally posted by fykseN
Originally posted by Fiveshot
I did a test with kkz jump type bhops and sbj's in order to keep my prestrafe exactly the same on bj and sbj test (250.0) and the results from dot A to dot B are: BJ: 20bhops with 250.0 pre, time: 12.60sec, SBJ: 18bhops with 250.0 pre, time 12.60sec. Without gaining any speed by strafing the results are 2 bhops less in sbj case. In strafing case ( + gaining speed) on straight direction less jumps higher speed and distance (sbj) would be the better case.


fair enough if you separate ideal/same for both conditions and reality, thanks for the research


Yes, exactly the same conditions

Chichin mapperrecord holder07/09/2019 15:03

Image

Fiveshot07/09/2019 17:17

Originally posted by Chichin
Image


well if so u manage to do both 2FOG jumps with exact same landing speed, still sbj has higher air time that means less fuser2. therefor pm_walkmove will strike different calculations and less speed reduction for the sbj. in other words both jumps will have different prestrafe (higher for the sbj)

Chichin mapperrecord holder07/09/2019 18:56(edited 07/09/2019 18:58)

The stuff i painted is just for illustration purpose. Keeping higher average speed is much easier with SBJ for the reasons you said fiveshot. And also because you dont always drop to ~290 but also overpre and get 240. The extra airtime will always help. I can't imagine bj powerbhop being faster in any condition.

Edit: it should be clear that you need less gain for 299 powerbhop with sbj as well, cuz fuser2 friction will reduce less speed.

_)_ Comment Banned10/09/2019 12:03

interesting kz fact: i shitted on the whole strafeace crew by landing 257 with 10 strafes... 3times... and 256.1 block with 11 strafes but kz and lj is so retarded haha :)

Emo10/09/2019 12:08

uhhh, what is 2fog or fog2 jump? :X

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