About spr1n's demo on kz_cg_wigbl0ck
Originally posted by RAJUjb 60% skill 40% luck
Okey, if it is like you said. What skills do you need to do JB ?
Originally posted by Pulsar!Like 10% skill and 90% luck.
Originally posted by Pulsar!A possibility to do a single JB is ~1/30 or may be 1/50, will think it is 1/30
Originally posted by Pulsar!My own feeling.. 1JB~30-50 trys..
Originally posted by Pulsar!You need a skill to do longjump, luck does not affects too much, but to do a JB you need only luck, it is an impossible to train it.
I'm ignoring nothing. Your arguments are based on your own feeling which means they're not very trustable.
Also:
Originally posted by Pulsar!Some poker players can "read" an oponents and know what exactly cards they have, and this skill of reading can be trained. Like longjumps can be trained.
So let's take an example of playing cards. First, you think it's totally based on luck since you never know what cards will you and other players get.. but you know that if you play it for many times, you can become better at it.
Hiro Nakamura's one
Originally posted by RemaKe`Originally posted by Pulsar!Like 10% skill and 90% luck.Originally posted by Pulsar!A possibility to do a single JB is ~1/30 or may be 1/50, will think it is 1/30Originally posted by Pulsar!My own feeling.. 1JB~30-50 trys..Originally posted by Pulsar!You need a skill to do longjump, luck does not affects too much, but to do a JB you need only luck, it is an impossible to train it.
I'm ignoring nothing. Your arguments are based on your own feeling which means they're not very trustable.
Also:Originally posted by Pulsar!Some poker players can "read" an oponents and know what exactly cards they have, and this skill of reading can be trained. Like longjumps can be trained.
So let's take an example of playing cards. First, you think it's totally based on luck since you never know what cards will you and other players get.. but you know that if you play it for many times, you can become better at it.
Why you ignored my arguments again ?
Originally posted by Pulsar![blockquote]What do you base these "facts" on? It's impossible to train it? You don't really have any arguments.[/blockquote]
Oh, okey. If you need some arguments let's start:
As Grrr said human eye is based on 24 frames per second. What it means ? It means what your computer shows 4 frames and your eye catched only 4. You have no idea what happeneds around youin the time between your "eye frame". Only this makes this technique "posibility based". But it is not all. The main thing is time of reaction. You can't catch an individual frame in which you are 1 frame before the ground simply because human's reaction time is not enough for it ;)
Try to play this little game:
There is a timer, start it and try to catch XX:XX:XX.00x every 10 second. Even if you will train it the whole day the best result you will get is +/- 0.15 second. That means 1/30 trys.
The same game you play when you try to catch a JB ;)
[blockquote]It's easier to predict when exactly you're going to land with a slow falling speed. Usually hight and falling speed are dependent on each other, except when you have reached your max falling velocity (2000 units/s or so?).[/blockquote]
Don't think.. It is the same.. If you falling with 2000u/s the space you need to "catch" is 20 units above the ground for an HL engine and 80 units above the ground for your eye. With falling speed 200. it is 2 for an engine and 8 for your eye ;) But as i said before it is not matter, cause you catch not the "space", but the frame.
please read flibo's post and focus on the other arguments i quoted.
I don't know how my eyes works exactly and it is don't play big role in our discussion.
The main thing it is what we can't catch an individual frame in possibility better ~1/30 and that it is the point. Cause the JBing is the same as "catching" an individual frame.
10/12/2009 23:06(edited 10/12/2009 23:08)Originally posted by liquidiOriginally posted by puppetzPeople used to talk about how far from the ground you must release duck if you want a jb. Now it's about frames? I don't know what to believe...
Well it's basically the same thing. The max height you must be off the ground depends on the speed but it doesn't change the fact that you are still hitting the key in the last frame. So I don't think horizontal speed matters here, it all comes down to timing within the 0.01 seconds.
The question is can you practice the timing to make it with high probability? No idea but I'm pretty open minded about it and I'd like to see someone pwning that timer link for example :)
Ye, I was giving jb a few shots today (in regards of this discussion), and I got some surprising results, it was almost the same difficulty no matter what my falling speed was. Still, you can't really proof it, but my logic tells me that the hardest conditions for jbs will be with a very high falling speed, or with a very slow falling speed.
Your falling speed would never really be slow in CS, 'cause of the gravity, but what I'm trying to say is that something like slowmo-hack probably wouldn't help at all. Try and look down when you're about to land... You can't see any "feet" or anything that will help you determine when your player model exactly is touching the ground, so it's mostly just a feeling.
Btw, you meant to write "vertical" and not "horizontal" speed right? 'Cause AFAIK, horizontal speed doesn't mean anything, it might disturb or confuse your eyes, but jbs doesn't depend on that.
@Pulsar: About your arguments. Well, you have more arguments than I do (I'm not trying to proof anything, I'm trying to convince you that jb is not solely based on luck). I didn't ignore them before, I was only explaining Dragon and Tloft why I made that stupid example (it was before you had written any "valid" arguments).
I'm not going to trust the arguments about the human eye being fps-based and that, it's just not that black/white. Read Flibo's post.
If you only look at this from a probability-based perspective, spr1n has got to be a living miracle (miracles doesn't really exist, it's kind of like religion) with that many records with jbs. He actually didn't geek those records that much. You also need to take all the tries he fell in his runs into consideration, that makes the probability for those 3 jbs in a run even smaller than 1/27.000!
I also wonder why a lot of people claimed that they've improved their "jb skill", if it's just about luck.
Originally posted by Pulsar!Some poker players can "read" an oponents and know what exactly cards they have, and this skill of reading can be trained. Like longjumps can be trained.
There is absolutely no connection between ljs and reading peoples minds like that, that comparison is even worse than my "lj/jb" comparison...
Reading peoples mind is something that can't be explained.
And maybe jumpbugs can't either, it doesn't seem like anyone has any proof for anything. So I'd say that example is closer to jumpbugs than longjumps!
Well, if spr1n proves that he didn't cheat (which unfortunatelyis almost impossible, we need to have faith in him and our demo programs, something like handshows will not proof anything...) are you still sure that jb is only based on luck? He can't really proof it, but if he doesn't get busted very soon, there might be something to it.
When trying to bust cheaters, it is smarter to look at their behavior and motives, than arguments like "it has to be impossible", 'cause no one is able to tell what is possible and what isn't, when it comes to kz.
I can't come up with any motives why a guy like spr1n would suddenly, after about 4-5 years in the scene, begin to cheat. That is the main reason I'm so sure here, 'cause if he doesn't have any motives to cheat, then why on earth would do it? Did someone replace his hardware with hardware specially designed for jumpbugs when he was sleeping?
I think he has also proved in the past that he has a thing for bugs/glitches in the game, something that we can't understand or explain, maybe he can't explain it himself either.
My conclusion of you, Pulsar, is that you're looking at this with a too "mathematic/theoretic" perspective, there's a lot more to it than that.
I have to admit that I think it's really hard to come up with any valid arguments for jbs, whether you believe it's only luck, only skill, or a mixture of both. That's also why we could probably discuss this forever.
So, lets say that spr1n is actually cheating, what possible ways of cheating could he be using? I think I shot down the possibility for slowmo, it is simply not an advantage. RemaKe shot down the possibility for using a script. What's left?
Actually, what I said above about "jumpbug hardware" is utter bullshit, it was also just a joke, but I think we all agree that jumpbugs doesn't really depend on your hardware, but your timing...
11/12/2009 00:24To be honest, 3x jb is unreal, but if he practiced the same part over and over he would catch the feel for it. There's still a lot of luck involved, but you can narrow it done a lot by just being perfectly well at the key pressing/releasing and just having the feel of when to let go.
I don't really care though :p
The Harder you train, the luckier you get....
guys stop saying "edark said hes clean, he doesnt cheat"
there is no way to know 100% if ANYONE online is clean, anybody could be cheating (as i said before fof is fairly blatently using slowmo in his xtremeblock/hj/lj demos and he has been deemed clean)
i refuse to believe that edark can detect EVERY kind of hack in every demo. its not possible.
when it comes to spr1n as i said again, im not well educated enough on jb to comment - but i dont care if he cheated - i dont like the maps he did it on nor am i impressed by edgebug / jumpbugs
plus im 100% sure that there are multiple cheated demos and people cheating that are getting away with it, so why should spr1n be any different?? (if he does cheat)
I wanna see NumB's reply. He may wanna tell us what he thinks about the case. NumB the HL engine profession
But who said jb is not scriptable without land-off detection? Since in the wrs you are always jumping of the same height it should be possible to calculate the timing. BUT this assumes you have absolutely constant fps. So in theory it should be possible.
i personally think the edgebug to jumpbug on invis-wall demo is way more unreal, i mean like wtf i would recall this to be one of the sickest trickjumps ever involving eb/jb and he just does it after kreedzing through the whole map..
the wigblock seems more logical and this kind of jb's also seem "trainable" to me. i would give you some arguments for my opinion but i cant concentrate due to SUBWAYZ AVATAR -_____- haha
i dont acctualy think he geeked 3 weeks for the wr considering this http://steamcommunity.com/id/spr1n
http://xtreme-jumps.eu/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?191835
you are all based on the fact that said eDark? he knows everything? Here have accepted lj demo from Billy in which msl have found out everything, and here it have not found out, how then can trust their verification system of records ?
And in general many are jumpbug like spr1n keyboard? so easily? http://pic.ipicture.ru/uploads/091207/d2HPuSMlzD.jpg
I didn't understand anything of that.
fps-death showed that jumpbug was done with a keyboard, cheat
it will show the same way.
there are those who do jumpbug using only the keyboard?
those whos jumpbug do cheater using eDark keyboard do fps-death only simple billy complex was done many are?
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RUSSIANS GO TO HELL
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