Improvements-
Hehe vaMp :D
About the applications:
- well there aren't any people willing to apply for an admin position. Last one to apply was plague, and as you can see, he was accepted. And he's doing his job.
- OK... there are a few things/qualities you need to know/have once you apply, and maybe that's what scares people... (like proper English knowledge, a clean background in the community, etc...)
About criticism :
- I totally agree! We should take responsibility for what we do. And yet again, from what i've seen, most admins do it... There are exceptions, and thats because each and every one of us is different, and our characters aren't alike...
About activity:
- My main issue about the admin activity is the response time to requests made by users towards admins. It takes just too much time for users to get their answers.
eg.: In Lagster's unbanning case, i think it took us about 3 weeks or more to give him an answer (i might have had my own fault for not posting in the unban section XD sorry about that guys <3 )... THAT IS WAY TO MUCH TIME TO MAKE A DECISION ... my suggestion is to message ourselves to take 5 minutes of our time and answer all of us within a day or so to a certain thread. Therefor we can give any user a fast answer. (this will most surely improve our image and popularity aswell :D)
- Other parts of admin activity are ok. From what i see "behind the scene" things are moving in a positive way. Ofc they are not moving at the speed of light... but stuff's moving :D .. Also there are alot of things to be done that depend on more than one person. Therefor, if one isn't available, the other ones can't do much...
LATER EDIT:
I'm gonna have to read through Lagster's post again, just to write down all of his suggestions. Gonna comment once i do that.
Cheers :P
[blockquote]Any chance to take a shot at Hazard right remake? Cause if you’re going to argue that him flaming is worse than a cheater maybe you should delete steam.[/blockquote]
You weren't able to get the point from ONE sentence? I usually explain you everything you missed in my posts but I let you explore this one yourself.
12/08/2010 12:20There are two ways to rule a community:
- Invisible: admins don't talk to members, they just do their job and they have 0 contact with the members.
Admins are never being bothered, just do their jobs - members either enjoy the community or leave it if it's not the case.
Most of the big e-gaming websites work this way and I don't see complaints.
- The other way is how XJ works: we try to be as closer as possible to members, and the rest doesn't need to be described, you guys know how this community works.
Sometimes I wish we could do the same as these big e-gaming communities... Just do our job.
We're going to be harsher and harsher with spammers/trolls and other immature behaviors so as to purge the community from this kind of people who are killing it little by little...
I would rather see a clean forum, with quality answers, rather than what we got now. The good thing is that we won't have to ban people,...
This new system will be presented very soon, so stay tuned =)
12/08/2010 12:27yeah sick remake man, nice
boom:
- yeah, i have no idea how many that actually applies, but it was just a thought, since it sounded on some of the admins that they didn't wanna accept anyone that they didn't know. =P
the activity thing by the way, i can't remember who, but some dude mentioned that maybe (i actually think it was lagster himself), that maybe you could make a forum for question and answers that people have about certain things. Like unbanning, admin issues or something. Not everyone knows how to use IRC, and a forum - in my opinion - would also make it easier for both parts. Every admin can answer when they have time, even though they're offline. And every user should know how to make a forum thread.
but again, since I dont know how the hell things are going behind the scenes, I wont comment on that! =P just glad that the things are moving as they should, and hoping for some changes very soon - and something will as far as i understand on ndR.
Seems I pressed reply, instead of edit -_- sorry. Just delete this post if you like, the real post is further downb
ha! ndR takes out he BAN HAMMER! beware mortals for he is almighty and all-powerful :D :D :D
@ vaMp: thats kind of a good idea, but the forum is already structured in such a way that you can virtually find any type of subforum that applies to what you are searching. that's the place where you need to post your questions (regarding to the website, servers, cheaters, etc...)
maybe you're talking about a subforum something like "Ask the admin" or smth =D
Dunno what to say about that... there's a PM function for that i guess xD
12/08/2010 14:27LAGSTER MADE THE POST OF THE CENTERY !
yeah boom, but the problem behind the pm thing that youre talking about is that some people are like;
'oh, hes doing his job better than that admin, so lets write to him instead'
or
'that admin is more known than the other, so lets write to him instead'
- and stuff like that, you know what I mean? therfore it will be stressed for one admin, because hes more 'famous' than the other, and then he will be stressed. Hope you can see where I'm going, lol =P
not saying that it has to be a forum, but maybe some smart programmer or something could make up a new system, i dont know =P
anyways, just an idea!
So, lots of answers and quotes, enjoy:
Boom section:
- OK... there are a few things/qualities you need to know/have once you apply, and maybe that's what scares people... (like proper English knowledge, a clean background in the community, etc...)
And what other qualities is needed? I definitely understand you need proper english (sidenote: that's where i really see that XJ has changed over the years. While reading old newspost and mostly weekly's, the english was terrible and just not enjoyable to read. It's the most important thing to me, to make a community look professional, and that's really something XJ should be proud of) , but I am really interested in what other qualities is needed to be accepted as an admin at XJ. I presume it's not how known you are, nor how good at kreedz you are (as long as you do know what kreedz is, the different techniques, etc.).
About criticism :
- I totally agree! We should take responsibility for what we do. And yet again, from what i've seen, most admins do it... There are exceptions, and thats because each and every one of us is different, and our characters aren't alike...
I agree with you there boom. Most admins do take responsibility for what they do (e.g. faker getting warned for flaming - respect). But I have to say, and it's not to judge or anything else, but Vee did really screw up at the puppetz release. If he had said he was sorry from the beginning, when he saw that most of the community were outraged, it wouldn't have been a problem - but he was way to stubborn to admit his mistake, and that's a bad quality (not saying that Vee is a bad admin, he's still new to the community and have lots of time to prove himself as a good admin - which I believe he'll be) and bad qualities definitely has to be worked on (both for members and admins).
About activity:
- My main issue about the admin activity is the response time to requests made by users towards admins. It takes just too much time for users to get their answers.
I have to agree on this. Sometimes it does take to long before the admins respond, though I think it has gotten a lot better with the new admins here. Two other things would be that sometimes, when there's a discussion going on (a serious one) in the forums, it dosen't always get the admin support it needs, or it is just not noticed until the discussion have been going on for a long time. I don't think this is as much as a problem as it used to be, with the new admins here and all, but just throwing it out there. Secondly, some admins needs to be better at responding on PM's with serious suggestions or similair. Or at least just message back if it is up for dicussion or something. It sucks to PM a suggestion or similair and not getting an answer of any kind.
- Other parts of admin activity are ok. From what i see "behind the scene" things are moving in a positive way. Ofc they are not moving at the speed of light... but stuff's moving :D .. Also there are alot of things to be done that depend on more than one person. Therefor, if one isn't available, the other ones can't do much...
I can't say much about this, since I'm not "behind the scene", but I will say that I think that the larger ideas are being worked in a steady pace, and it's better to do the work slowly, than rush it and come out with a sucky final product of a, perhaps, great idea. So I don't think anything can be improved regarding the speed of XJ projects.
Remake section:
[blockquote]Any chance to take a shot at Hazard right remake? Cause if you’re going to argue that him flaming is worse than a cheater maybe you should delete steam.[/blockquote]
You weren't able to get the point from ONE sentence? I usually explain you everything you missed in my posts but I let you explore this one yourself.
Actually, all I got from your post aswell, was a cheap shot at hazard. I'm pretty sure kayne have had several chances to change himself, which he did in the end, at least so far. (I have nothing against kayne, I'm just saying). Anyways, I'll drop this, and will stick to the topic, because I don't want this thread ruined.
ndR section:
- The other way is how XJ works: we try to be as closer as possible to members, and the rest doesn't need to be described, you guys know how this community works.
This is without any doubt also the best way to run a community. I
couldn't imagine XJ without the close contact the
community have with the admins. So please, even though
the other option seems much easier, don't ever change the
way the admins have contact with the members. It would
make the site boring as hell to visit, at least for me.
Sometimes I wish we could do the same as these big e-gaming communities... Just do our job.
I actually feel sad, that you, and maybe other admins, feel this way. It is sad that people who do so much for this community is driven to dislike both the community and the members at times.
I know I'm not always being constructive and stuff, but I also feel the need to have fun in this community, and always being dead serious isn't for everyone (not saying that all you admins are).
Anyway, I hope the change that you guys are implementing will do a difference against the troll problem. I won't mention any names but there is definitely some rising "stars" with very similair names, (I guess you know who now) who are doing nothing but trolling and acting stupid.
LAGGSTERRrR section:
There's lots to say here, but I have two things which actually anger me. The first is (not mentioning names) but people that say that all lagster is doing is trying to kill the community. Seriosuly, did you guys even read his post? The only thing lagster is trying to do, is improve this community as much as he can. I perfectly understand him getting getting mad, and eventually banned the last time, (I believe it was because of flaming or similair) because I too would be pissed off when you try to do everything you can for a community and the only thing you get in return, is shit.
Secondly, I think that is sad that you feel the need to write:
- I am not flaming nor trying to start a flamewar, these are my ideas on improvement
- Each and every bit of criticism is constructive and has been pointed out in the hopes of change
- XJ is the official kreedz community, I am not debating it nor am I complaining about it
- The staff do a lot of work, I’m not saying they don’t
- I do realise some of what I ask requires a lot more work
and the stuff you wrote about being afraid of getting banned again.
One should not be scared of posting his opinion, as long as one does not say it in any insulting way (which you clearly didn't). I just think that it is very sad that you feel obligated to write these things, to avoid being banned.
I won't quote you here lagster, and I'll make this kinda short, since if I had to quote most of your text, this would be the biggest wall of text since the beginning of time, lol.
Anyways, I can only that I agree with most of what you said. There's definitely stuff that can be improved, but there's definitely also stuff they're doing real great.
[blockquote]Actually, all I got from your post aswell, was a cheap shot at hazard.[/blockquote]
From the warnings page:
[blockquote]Reason: Insults, aggressive behavior on serval occasions, didn't change his behavior after a total of 10-20 warnings (?). Account disabled due to constant refusal to accept the site rules.[/blockquote]
So no, it wasn't a shot at someone, it was a truth.
Btw lagster, I don't think that cheating is okay. Kayne really DID deserve a permanent ban, but he's now unbanned, taking world records and obeying the rules - how can this harm anybody?
EDIT: Sorry boom, but I can't find anything wrong in discussing the current bansystem.
@ vaMp: usually, when an admin receives a PM, that PM turns into a thread in the admin forum, where it is discussed... but this is where i have my problem... lack of reaction... too much time needed for a response. thats what i hope we all will be working on!
@ punk: i loved reading your post, but you didn't really make any suggestion... you mostly commented and added stuff to the problems stated so far. still... everything you said is mostly true :)
LATER EDIT:
try and stick to the point of this thread... IMPROVEMENTS... stop discussing about hazard/lagster/kayne/whoever else....
boom:
- oh okay, well, then i cant see any reasons to change that - other than some admins needs some motivation to get answering those question(s).
12/08/2010 19:29To end the "Vee is a bad admin" topic: I've apologized to puppetz both in the newspost comments and by PM. Enough of it. As ndR said, it would be better if you guys just let us do our jobs without flaming on every single thing that happens.
I, at least, try to get as close to the members as I can. I always talk to people through IRC, I always answer PMs within 2 days tops. But this relationship is delicate when you make a SINGLE mistake and everyone starts flame wars. It seems to me most of you don't appreciate the work we do "invisibly", as ndR said, but you're always there to catch anything at least a tiny bit wrong that happens.
I'm of course not generalizing, as there are very good members on XJ, but some of them are driven away by the bad ones.
Originally posted by boom.dll@ punk: i loved reading your post, but you didn't really make any suggestion... you mostly commented and added stuff to the problems stated so far. still... everything you said is mostly true :)
Yeah, I know boom :-) It was mostly because at this current time I couldn't come up with any suggestions, except the ones already made, so I decided to post my opinion regarding different posts and adding things I would like to see implemented. Don't worry, I'm trying to come up with suggestions and I will definitely come with something and post it here.
Originally posted by VeeTo end the "Vee is a bad admin"
If this is directed at me, I'm sorry if you feel like I was saying you are a bad admin throughout my post Vee, that was not my intention. All I said it was a mistake and that's it. I'm sure we've all learned from the experience and it will be easier to avoid that the events develop like this did. I didn't mean to imply that you are a bad admin in any way. Once again, sorry if my post made you feel this way.
EDIT:
I came up with something - don't know if it fits here though:
One thing I'd really like is that we, members, often hear that even though many think admins are being lazy, you say that you do much work we don't know about. Perhaps, if it's not all secrets, you could tell the community about some of this work, I'm sure someone will find interesting (I will), but just to show people that you guys do a lot of work for the community even though they don't know it. This would surely make a lot of comments about the admins being lazy go away, and would probably make the work more enjoyable.
Originally posted by ndRThere are two ways to rule a community:
- Invisible: admins don't talk to members, they just do their job and they have 0 contact with the members.
Admins are never being bothered, just do their jobs - members either enjoy the community or leave it if it's not the case.
Most of the big e-gaming websites work this way and I don't see complaints.
- The other way is how XJ works: we try to be as closer as possible to members, and the rest doesn't need to be described, you guys know how this community works.
Sometimes I wish we could do the same as these big e-gaming communities... Just do our job.
We're going to be harsher and harsher with spammers/trolls and other immature behaviors so as to purge the community from this kind of people who are killing it little by little...
I would rather see a clean forum, with quality answers, rather than what we got now. The good thing is that we won't have to ban people,...
This new system will be presented very soon, so stay tuned =)
not really true.. hltv.org, admins answer questions in the comments, post comments, overall they run a good community for how huuuge it is. for american sites, esea and gotfrag a few years ago, admins were all over the place, talking, helping, fixing problems users pointed out. its never as cut and dry as one or the other.
13/08/2010 04:02(edited 13/08/2010 04:07)I just want to add another quick point, again this is not flaming just a few examples on why I think the admin -> player and even admin -> admin communication can be improved.
From what I know you guys just post a thread in the admin forums and just see what happens, the MNM thread i heard died and wasn't responded too thus admins forgot, my ban thread i heard also died and nothing happened whilst waiting for ONE other admin to read and oh and Nsp1re is still waiting to hear back from one of you about The Church of Lagsterism 2, I don't care about the movie but you should of at least told him it wasn't good enough instead of forgetting, It was not like either of us hadn't PM'd any admins.
Now there is three examples where admins refuse to prioritize and even care about whats going on, as I post earlier on, the staff need to somewhat be objective when dealing with situations because the response "oh I didn't see the thread" reflects horribly on all of you, maybe I'm the only person this happens to and you go out of your way to ignore anything in relation if so then whatever but three times! I can deal with once but three times really changes things...
So maybe something new needs to be established there so you can do your work more efficiently, my ban was held up because one admin was yet to reply? At least that's what I heard, I think its great that you all vote or discuss it or whatever you do but if you have to wait two weeks to rely on a staff member to respond, or is that just my cases?
Really hope this can be improved, as I said a PM system where a member has direct access to admins, even (duno how hard it is) in the PM system, you can PM "Staff" and it makes/creates a thread in the private/admin forums for you, so instead of waiting for 1 staff member, the issues can be dealt with more efficiently and effectively because any of the admins can PM you straight back and start dealing with the problem. Just something like that, because IRC PM's shouldn't be the only way to get face time with a staff member.
As for those discussing the improvements, hats off, took a while to get passed the Vee stuff but the more that is talked about, and the more ideas that are thrown around the better you can make the site.
Oh and lastly I don't know what changes your looking to make, ndR, but it sounds like your going to ban whoever/whatever straight away, no tolerance policy? I don't see that as any sort of improvement but feel free to prove me wrong.
EDIT: And then there was the time a few years ago when DHT and ndR had to speak to faker on my behalf about my perm ban because he wouldn't speak to me, being banned from XJ shouldn't mean players aren't fit to speak to admins, I don't agree with that mentality at all. The same way I don't agree with XJ being a 'privileged and not a right' when it comes to voicing opinions but I wont get into that...
Thanks.
Originally posted by LAGSTERRrRkz[a]
Oh and lastly I don't know what changes your looking to make, ndR, but it sounds like your going to ban whoever/whatever straight away, no tolerance policy? I don't see that as any sort of improvement but feel free to prove me wrong.
Don't think that's how they're gonna do it:
Originally posted by ndRThe good thing is that we won't have to ban people,...
This new system will be presented very soon, so stay tuned =)
Though, I can't come up with anyting else, they might do instead. So we'll see.
13/08/2010 07:14Oh missed that, good point Punk!
13/08/2010 14:33We hope we can prove you wrong with upcoming changes. We obviously can't say what we plan until we decide every term of it, but we can tell you we're not sitting and having tea with cookies (though I love cookies :().
I would recommend you to wait and see, we can't keep arguing over things that are about to change, right?
Hope you understand we are working, and working hard.