Improvements-
And this is why we're about to take "interesting" measures against these 'individuals'...
I don't want to sound disrespectful to you ndr but if that's the only point you got out of lagsters' message... He mentioned so many problems (dealing with XJ staff) and you respond to the one that wasn't even mentioned in his post?
Lagster has put so much time into this thread and I just think some people are really, really disrespectful towards him by ignoring his other points.
First of all good to see you back thread opener!
For me this thread is somehow curious, because you managed to talk about a lot a lot of different aspects. It's like you illustrated us your opinion about every detail. But one thing is clear: this thread can not become a good discussion about the aspects you mentioned, because it just has too many topics. If you want to discuss it, open _x_ independent threads, else the discussion is unprecise.
You started to talk about general behaviour in our little social network here, I'll do the same now and I'll be honest.
I dislike the fact people comment here saying something like:"I agree with everything you said." For me these posts show they have not thought about anything you said. I always hate such a comment...
When I was in insilio, I pointed out some admins are inactive, other admins are immature and all they care about is to stay an admin. My criticism was that hard (I would rate it hard, such words can hurt if you're a part of the admin staff, and they did hurt some admins as far as I know).
I never had a warning for that. Thopa, omilo, later faker even agreed to the words I've said there. To say it in different words: I think your worries or doubts about to express your own personal opinion is pointless. Can you please give me one precise example (with forum link) where someone was warned for his opinion?
Since all this talk is the passionate desire for justice I tell you it's not fair towards the admins to claim something like that without a real background. It's injustice for admins if that claim is unjustified. To point out my personal opinion, I would have never permanent banned Hazard, nor you lagster, because I really think the community benefited from your suggestions/opinions. I also think that the most of the admins don't even realise nor respect the way you try/tried to help the community. As you've already said, all they probably see behind the name 'lagster' is someone who often uses swearwords and that's very sparse...
Furthermore, I would even go this far to say that some admins really understand their admin job here as "work". That is very sad if you ask me, because in the western society I see a trend that every human is decreased to a number (when people are working) and sometimes I have the feeling it's the same here at XJ. Rather than being happy that we have such a large amount of users and different individual persons, some admins really graze the forum for swear words in order to hand out warnings. They don't even enter your name, they enter a user ID at warnings.php. Just this case itself is for sure metaphorical for the way some admins understand their "work".
I agree to that lagster, you've already said quite the same, but the admins are individuals, as faker pointed out. You can't really critisize XJ, because there is none called 'XJ', all you can do is criticizing members. That's what you have done in the past and you've detected some individual flaws, but lagster, let us look at yours. You kept flaming a lot, I read a lot of posts with pointless, really needless flames, that could have been just cut off your post. You have such flaws yourself, like everyone.
Something I dislike for example: people are too fast with their final judgement about members (maybe especially about admins). Let us take the Vee example, he made a mistake there, it was his mistake, and if he did not accept his mistake in the comments later, he directly made a second one. But he is human. It's a bad start, indeed, but what if he does great work in the next two years this blooper is forgotten.
Since admins are the people who decide in the end, I think the community has every right to analyse their behaviour and decisions, to rate/judge them and to suggest/criticize everything they want to. That is how I understand a community and if that is somehow different (like freedom of speeched is touched for example) I leave such a community. If tomorrow faker writes a news that narrows the rights of the members, I leave the staff and the community.
But also lagster, you should criticize everything a normal member says, if you really don't agree. You can also judge their behaviour etc. and not just the ones from the admins (even though it's clear our behaviour/decisions are 'more important for the changes in our community' and thats why people rather criticize us, I hope you understand this sentence right!). I liked Hazard there for example, he had the same language and critical view on every member, it didn't depend if he was warned, a member or an admin. That is how it should be in my opinion.
Also I come to point now I really fucking hate and that is constraint. Let us create a fictional demo admin in our head, who disrespects members and is a completely asshole. If he is a demo admin, we can not just throw him out and get a new one. He has all scripts, fps-d admin version, all tutorials from eDark... he is a danger if he knows how to code. But a lot of members would demand his kick, because they do not know that background information.
I have to ciriticize a lot of members now with saying your judgements and following claims are too fast, not considered enough and often the same. It's very often black and white. The bad and powerful admin attacks the innocent and weak member. I've also seen it the other way around: the hardworking and caring admin is the victim of a foolish and immature member.
We should drop that, if you ask me. I'm everytime disappointed of an admin if I really read such a statement where this black/white stereotype is once again unpacked, not even taking a closer look to real problem/situation.
Also I hate generalizations... there is "the admins" or "the members" and "everytime"...
I talk too much, I will make a new post later. Please don't quote me to say +1 or respond with "i agree with everything/nothing".
Originally posted by LAGSTERRrRkz[a]
[] you can PM "Staff" and it makes/creates a thread in the private/admin forums for you, []
this would be a great idea. but i don't really know if it is possible. maybe m0ver can tell us that...
about "The Church of Lagsterism 2", I remember telling Nsp1re stuff about the ongoing vote. We are 3 movie admins that vote for a movie. Therefor, a movie needs at least 2 votes to get posted on the front page.
i distinctly remember telling Nsp1re that the vote isn't over yet, but it would probably not get posted, because it had already received two NO votes.....
I'm just going to reply to chrizZo's thoughts without quoting because I don't got the time right now.
I do agree on the fact that everyone who got a warning or ban deserved it. However, I think one of the problems is that when you voice your opinion, nobody is listening. What happens when you say something but nobody is listening? What do you do next time? You will raise your voice right? If that doesn't help, you are going to scream like hell to make sure you got their attention. After that it's only getting worse... and most people don't do that just because they like to scream but because they care, they care about voicing their opinion, they care about helping people.
Obviously some people also got problems transfering their thoughts and emotions. But I have to make a note that when you are really mad or upset about something aka strong emotions, the first thing that comes into your mind are not rational thoughts. Everyone can remember a situation where he saw an idiot doing something stupid and you were about to call him an idiot, but on the last second your brains took the control over again from your emotions and you kept those thoughts for yourself. I'm just responding to your part about posting too fast with no content, to explain why things like that happen.
Yes you are right, we are probably too black/white. But sometimes you really need to be black or white in order to voice your opinion, in order to transfer your thoughts and ideas otherwhise people just won't listen. Even when in reality you are not that black or white. Why would you listen to an old grey story? Strong and straight thoughts are more noticeable. Why do we have democrat/republican and not some weird mix?
I can write 1000 words about the wonderful job you are all doing and then 10 more words about the things that don't work well. Or, I can just write 1000 words about the things that don't work? Approach A is going to feed your ego but it's not going to change a thing because you probably won't even notice the bad points mentioned. Approach B is going to 'shock' and it's going to make things move and change. Of course B isn't going to win Mr. niceguy 2010 but atleast he's offering the most constructive help imo.
You know what my mum used to say because a teacher was picking on me because I did something bad again? She said: well that's a good thing, because it means they care about you. When you are doing a bad job and nobody points it out to you, that's when they have given up on you.
13/08/2010 17:28(edited 13/08/2010 23:16)Yeah fair points chrizzo, firstly when I refer to 'the admins' or 'the members' I only do so to stray away from singling people out and starting banter, so I'm sorry for generalizing but I am trying to save myself lol, I am not blaming the admins as a whole nor am I blaming admins individually I am just pointing out fault in the hopes of change and I think you are getting at the same point that I am, being objective, which is overall what it is all about.
As for the way I presented my post and points, I pretty much just started writing a few things down and it all sort of came together so apologies to those who are having a hard time breaking it all up!
[blockquote]Furthermore, I would even go this far to say that some admins really understand their admin job here as "work". That is very sad if you ask me, because in the western society I see a trend that every human is decreased to a number (when people are working) and sometimes I have the feeling it's the same here at XJ. Rather than being happy that we have such a large amount of users and different individual persons, some admins really graze the forum for swear words in order to hand out warnings. They don't even enter your name, they enter a user ID at warnings.php. Just this case itself is for sure metaphorical for the way some admins understand their "work".[/blockquote]
^ this is exactly on the point, where I spoke about some of the staff not appreciating their role this is what I was talking about, and although I see it as fair enough, I mean if you are working as an admin to clean the forums then it guess it just becomes protocol to just scan through and warn/ban when they see fit but what I am trying to say is its quite ignorant; I am completely aware I swear and flame when trying to get my point across but that doesn't take away from the fact that there is a point behind it, even after I'm banned people STILL don't understand the point I was trying to make despite being banned for it (unBreakS especially, since he is quoting my MNM thread)
[blockquote]To say it in different words: I think your worries or doubts about to express your own personal opinion is pointless. Can you please give me one precise example (with forum link) where someone was warned for his opinion?[/blockquote]
^ this links directly into your quote above about admins and their 'work', as I also agreed above admins are ignorant to a persons post/opinion/idea/what they are trying to say and will warn without completely understanding, like I also said above in relation to my flaming, yes I agree that my flaming is out of line but again, I was banned before I was even listened too. I will use this quote again (Courtesy of Hazard, great quote)
"see cats don't listen if the joint is soft, so sometimes you gotta curse to get your point across"
[blockquote]I do agree on the fact that everyone who got a warning or ban deserved it. However, I think one of the problems is that when you voice your opinion, nobody is listening. What happens when you say something but nobody is listening? What do you do next time? You will raise your voice right? If that doesn't help, you are going to scream like hell to make sure you got their attention. After that it's only getting worse... and most people don't do that just because they like to scream but because they care, they care about voicing their opinion.
-and-
I can write 1000 words about the wonderful job you are all doing and then 10 more words about the things that don't work well. Or, I can just write 1000 words about the things that don't work? Approach A is going to feed your ego but it's not going to change a thing because you probably won't even notice the bad points mentioned. Approach B is going to 'shock' and it's going to make things move and change. Of course B isn't going to win Mr. niceguy 2010 but atleast he's offering the most constructive help imo.[/blockquote]
^ this is also spot on and links directly into my point above.
[blockquote]Also I come to point now I really fucking hate and that is constraint. Let us create a fictional demo admin in our head, who disrespects members and is a completely asshole. If he is a demo admin, we can not just throw him out and get a new one. He has all scripts, fps-d admin version, all tutorials from eDark... he is a danger if he knows how to code. But a lot of members would demand his kick, because they do not know that background information.[/blockquote]
Didn't even think of this, great point, I guess it's something you guys need to keep in mind!
13/08/2010 20:51So I'm not an asshole but I could just as easily give out every private intel to anyone if I got kicked? Smooth, chrizZo.
To J!nX^:These emotions you describe are just human and of course they can lead to hasty and unnecessary breach of the rules. In intense discussions such bloopers can happen of course.
About the black&white aspect: Of course it is like that. But if we have a really important discussion, we can only approuch to an objective judgement by talking differentiated. For the usual forum post validity of a post or a funded reasoning is probably not what the most pay attention to. We do no science here, we are here for fun, that is clear.
I agree about the criticizism part with you.
flame when trying to get my point across but that doesn't take away from the fact that there is a point behind it
That is something I've noticed as well and it is sad. In posts from you or lagster were good thoughts and a lot of people, not just the admins, just ignored the content because of your harsh language. That is also the point why the same people never realised that you tried to help, because everything they've seen were the hard words. That's their fault and it's somehow desolate.
Now about the hazard quote: If vulgar language is seriously the only way to catch the attention of the community, we have to admit something went very wrong.
I prefer differentiated posts over entertaining ones, but that is probably not the case for everyone. Well lagster, I can just respond to all of this with: I will listen to you, whether you use swearwords or not. So I suggest you to cut them out.
To Vee: We already talked in private, but I want to say it here once again: I don't think you are immature or an asshole and my post wasn't meant like: You would have been kicked, if you were a normal forum admin. I didn't mean the only reason you are still admin is because you have some private files.
I think my words were misleading. sorry for that Vee, if you felt offended, I didn't have these thoughts at all. Sorry for my scattiness.
13/08/2010 21:17I didn't feel offended, sorry for the overreaction as well.
14/08/2010 04:48That quote is from a song that Hazard likes, I think it fits in well with my point on flaming/language though.
nice essay and the same points which ive been trying to make over lots of my arguments in the forums when they come to me
its like the argument with me and kaffee in the moviemaking section
i was misunderstood and while i was explaining in so clear information that anyone could understand, people still ignored what I wrote and took it the other way.
the admin closed the argument before my last and most 'explainable' post which was every answer the people were looking for.
I finally managed to go through every single post in detail. Phew !!! Who says XJ doesn't have the time (on some occasions talent) to make sensible and constructive posts ?? I really loved this thread not only cuz of the meaningful suggestions but also cuz of the mature approach by all the members who post here :)
I just wanna bring 3 of my points to the limelight. So, here they go :
1. Cant we make XJ go back to the way it was 5 years back ?? I mean to say the time where every member respected each other and used this community to make friends and have fun. There was flaming, spamming, personal wars but ppl were mature enough to know their boundaries and take criticisms sportingly (both admins and members)
2. Instead of pointing out simply putting forward the suggestions (which are mostly in the form of a problem), wouldn't it be better if we also posted the solutions as well ?? I always believed (and continue to believe) that 50k+ members thinking together and constructively is always better than 25 admins putting forward their limited source of ideas and solutions.
3. Is it necessary to be an admin to help out ?? I have seen members (many deserving ones) who get their applications to be admins get rejected. But after that, they (mostly) seem to give up on XJ instead of helping XJ in their own unique ways. Sure if they were appointed as admins it'd have given them a moral boost no doubt and even some powers (which I am sure they would have used it rightfully) to make it easy for them. But is it totally a waste of time if you try it out the hard way, for the community you love so much and care for ?? Also, I always believe hard work always pays off--ALWAYS.
Those were some of the points I like to ponder upon whenever I am free. I try to put myself to the positions of the person concerned and try to figure out and justify their means. And trust me, it does help me to keep my calm, make friends and enjoy kz !!!
i just don't like the injustice to the members, sometimes admins are favouring others and not dealing justly; but don't get me wrong - I know the admins are trying to do it well and they do a good job for most part.
but this point was made some time back; and its gonna be looong [slang for 'annoying' (sort of :p)] to re-discuss it :O
19/08/2010 13:00(edited 19/08/2010 13:08)Originally posted by A3T!U$`1. Cant we make XJ go back to the way it was 5 years back ?? I mean to say the time where every member respected each other and used this community to make friends and have fun. There was flaming, spamming, personal wars but ppl were mature enough to know their boundaries and take criticisms sportingly (both admins and members)
How the community was 5 years ago is a bit hard to remember, even for members who were there I think. But what's sure is that : 1. Community was smaller which means less chances to have fights, ambiance is always cooler when there are less people...
2. People were still "beginners" in KZ (beginners are always more up to make friends on a server because they are, for example, blocked on a certain jump and then just ask another guy how to do it, this same person is not much better than him and they start laughing ... the theorical approach), they're not looking for a strong competition but just improve their own skill at first.
Talking about respect, you're totally right. There's not much respect anymore, people seem to be constantly looking for someone to flame. The problem here, for sure, is that forum admins are just too tolerant towards posts pointed to a user. As soon as a post might in any way offend the user aimed, the post should be immediatly removed and the poster should get an instant warning. It seems that now, only clear written insults are meant to be offending posts.
A person here always claim to have the right to express his opinions because "this is a forum"; opinions about something AND someone. I'm sorry, the someone should be removed without any doubt, I think, and I am sure, that there is a limit to expressing an opinion on a public forum, simply because it really feels like a public humiliation. If you want to tell someone what you think about him, you can just use a pm, other members don't need to know your personal affinities about him.
All in all, I'm not only blaming the persons who are openly trying to offend someone on the forum, I'm mostly blaming forum admins who should do their job properly and remove any kind of post that might affect any user. Talking about respect, well, not doing it as an admin is a big huge fat prove of disrespect.
Originally posted by A3T!U$`2. Instead of pointing out simply putting forward the suggestions (which are mostly in the form of a problem), wouldn't it be better if we also posted the solutions as well ?? I always believed (and continue to believe) that 50k+ members thinking together and constructively is always better than 25 admins putting forward their limited source of ideas and solutions.
I was thinking the same too, and I'm on my way to make a real suggestions thread, with a solution for any idea. When I have the time to make this thread I will. But what came to my mind while readin lagster's thread is that he is mostly blaming admins for not doing their job properly, and that's all (don't get me wrong, I also agree that you, lagster, gave some solutions, but I think it would have been better to bold the solution, and then develope why this needs to be changed).
19/08/2010 18:11That is pretty disappointing, a 'real' suggestions thread, how ignorant are you? did you read ANY of my points about flaming and getting the point across, because its pretty clear as to why I was aggressive in pointing out problems.
Blaming the admins errr back up and have a look at the real problems, like I recently pointed out in my other thread LOL
is it the communities fault or the admins fault for inappropriate bans?
is it the communities fault or the admins fault for working on senseless features over creating a proper league?
is the the communities fault or the admins fault lack of communication?
Should I go on or are you and Vee going to put your heads together and come up with more stubborn excuses. I honestly thought you had idea about the situation when in reality your just telling people what they want to hear, well done for being the saint you are and putting together a 'real' suggestions post, cheers man!
19/08/2010 18:32(edited 19/08/2010 18:40)Originally posted by LAGSTERRrRkz[a]
That is pretty disappointing, a 'real' suggestions thread, how ignorant are you? did you read ANY of my points about flaming and getting the point across, because its pretty clear as to why I was aggressive in pointing out problems.
Blaming the admins errr back up and have a look at the real problems, like I recently pointed out in my other thread LOL
is it the communities fault or the admins fault for inappropriate bans?
is it the communities fault or the admins fault for working on senseless features over creating a proper league?
is the the communities fault or the admins fault lack of communication?
Should I go on or are you and Vee going to put your heads together and come up with more stubborn excuses. I honestly thought you had idea about the situation when in reality your just telling people what they want to hear, well done for being the saint you are and putting together a 'real' suggestions post, cheers man!
And as I exactly thought, you're just here to be angry and flame. I don't see where and when you helped with your posts. You say I just say what people want to read, but the difference with what you say is that I remain polite with the admins, though I don't necessarly go in their sense. You only read what you want to read, though, since I clearly wrote that you still gave solutions, but all in all the main thing that comes out from your texts is "REVOLUTION". Why not try to go with the admins, improve with them? No, you're just around and tell them that they don't do their jobs properly.
cheers man, won't reply to any of your posts anymore, angry people never bring anything positive, there is no debate with you.
Originally posted by LAGSTERRrRkz[a]
is it the communities fault or the admins fault for inappropriate bans?
is it the communities fault or the admins fault for working on senseless features over creating a proper league?
is the the communities fault or the admins fault lack of communication?
First of all, stop widening the gap btwn the admins and the members. Secondly, remember you cannot clap with a single hand. If there is a problem, both admins and members are responsible for it. Only one of them cannot be blamed. And ya, instead of finding faults, it would be better if you provide solutions as well. Because only pointing out problems, without a solution, is itself a problem.
Originally posted by LAGSTERRrRkz[a]
Should I go on or are you and Vee going to put your heads together and come up with more stubborn excuses.
What's the point of bringing irrelevant person [in this case Vee] to the discussion btwn yourself and koukouz ?? Keep your personal grievances to yourself. If you have got anything to say which is relevant to the improvement of the community then continue posting or else it would be better that you do not post at all. Personal Attacks shall not be tolerated.
Originally posted by LAGSTERRrRkz[a]
is it the communities fault or the admins fault for working on senseless features over creating a proper league?
I would rather stay off this thread, and only observe, but this comment.. I really need to know, do you think all we do is senseless? Do you not think we have tried creating leagues? You yourself have many failures when it comes to creating a proper league so you should know better then using such a comment. Anyway, in my eyes, it seems like leagues are quite useless atm, imo we should stay at Prochallenge etc. It's entertaining, and it's easy to host.
The question though, is do you really find our work senseless? Demoreleases, new site features, the new XJ map, learning about new cheats, the new map system and preparing a solution for the forums?
Sorry, I just felt kind of offended with that small comment, I will stay out of the rest, but really.. Such comments demotiveate admins quite a lot.
20/08/2010 06:02Exactly koukouz, I'm obviously here to be angry and flame... Moronic lol.
AETIUS, don't even start talking to me about personal grievances, if anyone plays favorites on this site it is defiantly not me. I have no respect for someone who thinks 'XJ is the best gaming community in the world'.
juleeeh, read my other thread and explain to me how a big forum clean up, a friends/IM system, birthday notifications is really helping anyone, because I am honestly stumped when I try and understand the logic behind this. How many times did I that I am aware of the admins work, and your offended? I'm fucking offended;
"Why would you post problems and not answers?! Your just here to flame"
Are you kidding me? I am angry, but I'm not flaming, someone HAD to point out the problems and I DID give solutions, get rid of bad admins/make the rules more consistent, run another prochallenge tournament or one similar, put an admin to member communication tool in place, what the fuck else do you want me to do, why am I being fought when the majority of members have agreed with my points? Stop baiting me and clue up. Fucking hopeless.
Originally posted by LAGSTERRrRkz[a]
juleeeh, read my other thread and explain to me how a big forum clean up, a friends/IM system, birthday notifications is really helping anyone, because I am honestly stumped when I try and understand the logic behind this. How many times did I that I am aware of the admins work, and your offended? I'm fucking offended;
Yes I have acknowledged the times you've said that you are aware of our work. You obviously aren't if you think we work on senseless projects. I hope you noticed you pointed out two of the sideprojects we have. We take our chance to generally improve our site while we can, as we just got our beloved m0ver. We have these sideprojects now, which you obviously isn't happy with, because we have had admins chosing to do those jobs volenteerly. Obviously not a huge focus compared to other projects. A league will be made sooner or later, and when that time comes I will suggest a prochallenge instead, as it's easy and entertaining, but right now our focus isn't only in creating a league. In your two last posts you say our work is senseless, should we not learn about new cheats, create new demoreleases etc? The way you say it, it truly sounds like something in that tune.
ps. You still aren't very precise on your suggestions, but the general message has been seen, but we already have a huge to-do list, so cutting down on admins right now isn't exactly in our minds.
And if you don't calm down, you probably know what will happen. No last chances, you've had more of those already.
Originally posted by LAGSTERRrRkz[a]
AETIUS, don't even start talking to me about personal grievances, if anyone plays favorites on this site it is defiantly not me. I have no respect for someone who thinks 'XJ is the best gaming community in the world'.
None of the idealistic visionaries care to earn your respect. And sooner or later, XJ is going to be one of the best gaming communities in the world :)
And you irrelevant mention of Vee in your previous post is quite contrary to your views in this post
Originally posted by LAGSTERRrRkz[a]
get rid of bad admins/make the rules more consistent, run another prochallenge tournament or one similar, put an admin to member communication tool in place
1st suggestion : Pretty ambiguous suggestion. Still, be more specific about the mentioned admins and also with reasons.
2nd suggestion : Admins are working on it and its gonna be arranged soon enough.
3rd suggestion : The "tool" u mentioned is this forum itself. If you are not satisfied with it, do mention the detailed suggestion of an alternate one.
Originally posted by LAGSTERRrRkz[a]
Stop baiting me and clue up. Fucking hopeless.
You better check your words..